MIDI OUT Confusion

elektroon · 2015-05-09T09:58:06.000Z

[quote=“” poonti""]

After they release Overbridge, the last thing people are going to want to see on the analog boxes is yet another pile of updates not related to adding new synthesis machines (like the ring mod kick drum).
[/quote]

That’s the Rytm though. We’re talking about the Keys/A4.

""poonti"":

After Overbridge, I sure as hell don’t want to see something as boring as a MIDI sequencer - I already have a crap-load of those. Sorry, just being blunt here.

That’s good that you’ve got other options, some people don’t. But don’t you think it’s a shame that you have to use another sequencer and bypass the excellent one in the Analog to do something as basic as layering?

Ess · 2015-05-09T10:27:26.000Z

I think one important point to take note of is that the Analog Four was never intended to be used as a center hub in a MIDI environment – unlike the Octatrack. The reason for this is that the product can have a much more defined feature set. It’s very clear what it is and what you would do with it. Of course this is a limitation, but with limitation comes definition.

However, the Analog Four has an Analog tongue, it speaks CV with other gear and could very well act as a hub in an analog environment. Do you see the reasoning here?

I am neither confirming nor denying whether there will a MIDI sequencer on the Analog Four. I am merely trying to convey the thoughts that went into making the design decisions during development.

vos · 2015-05-09T10:39:03.000Z

Well this discussion became interesting after all. And it provoced reactions from the Elektron-side.
A lot of passion, I like that…

invisible_acropolis · 2015-05-09T11:14:25.000Z

When I first learned the A4 had no midi sequencer I was very perplexed and bummed out… and it greatly diminished my desire to get one, until I heard a bit more about overbridge and how that could ‘close the gap’ in some ways. I would still prefer to have a hardware midi device as the central hub, but cest la vie - and also I realize its not impossible for elektron to add this functionality later.

But it would probably be a bit unwieldy, unless it mirrored the current track structure - because you are going to be limited by the physical interface thats already on there. Sure you could make three-button control moves, etc. etc. - but ideally it would be easily useful and not a massive pain in the ass, otherwise what is the point in the first place.

I do agree that its clearly not an “all-in-one” solution and was clearly not designed that way. I am wondering if elektron would ever design such a device as well, although Im not sure I would go as far as saying they deliberately cripple machines simply to move more units. It may be cynical to say but plenty of companies ARE doing that - its just I dont think elektron is one of them.

elektroon · 2015-05-09T11:38:14.000Z

[quote=“” Simon""]
I think one important point to take note of is that the Analog Four was never intended to be used as a center hub in a MIDI environment – unlike the Octatrack. The reason for this is that the product can have a much more defined feature set. It’s very clear what it is and what you would do with it. Of course this is a limitation, but with limitation comes definition.

However, the Analog Four has an Analog tongue, it speaks CV with other gear and could very well act as a hub in an analog environment. Do you see the reasoning here?

I am neither confirming nor denying whether there will a MIDI sequencer on the Analog Four. I am merely trying to convey the thoughts that went into making the design decisions during development.
[/quote]

Interesting stuff. Thanks for posting Simon. I sort of see the thinking behind the A4 being the hub of an analog setup but, as I said earlier in the thread, I like to mix different types of synth sounds - analog, digital, sampled etc. The A4 when released was 4 analog mono synths and with cv/gate you could add… more analog mono synths. A bit coals to Newcastle

To me, if you had to just have cv/gate in 1 Elektron box it would be the Monomachine so you can add analog to its digital sounds but really, any modern digital sequencer with a midi out port should have external midi sequencing if possible.

Also about the point about the A4 not being designed to be centre hub of a midi setup, ok but the Keys is different don’t you think? It is designed to be a centre piece being a midi controller. So you can play a bunch of external digital synths on it but can’t record what you’re playing on them in the sequencer. That doesn’t make sense to me.

elektroon · 2015-05-10T11:31:35.000Z

[quote=“” KOTARE""]

HOWEVER, I am extremely excited by Overbridge. If I can send all MIDI data from the AK to DAW then the next step for me will be to make the DAW a gateway MIDI hub, sending that MIDI information to the rest of my kit.

If that is possible then this will be a massive win for me, and for anyone in this thread seeking MIDI SEQ out functionality from the AK as a studio leader synth, if you use a computer.

Bloody exciting times!
[/quote]

Heh, my old computer finally packed in on Friday so no Overbridge midi option for me. Still hoping Elektron will implement midi sequencing soon without the need for it though for the hardware only users… fingers crossed.

G0n35y · 2015-05-10T11:41:10.000Z

I’ve been using my AK with Live for a while now and work around the midi sequencing using clips. My clips are the same length as my AK sequencer patterns and, being Live, I can hot switch between synths willy nilly to “target” the AK’s midi output that way. So while it isn’t sequencing from the AK I’m at least getting a similar experience. Overbridge will tighten everything up nicely I suspect.

elektroon · 2015-05-10T12:01:57.000Z

[quote=“” J0n35y""]
I’ve been using my AK with Live for a while now and work around the midi sequencing using clips. My clips are the same length as my AK sequencer patterns and, being Live, I can hot switch between synths willy nilly to “target” the AK’s midi output that way. So while it isn’t sequencing from the AK I’m at least getting a similar experience. Overbridge will tighten everything up nicely I suspect.
[/quote]

Not sure I fully understand your working? Target a midi output? You’re essentially saying though that you’re having to use another sequencer as the one in the Keys doesn’t do the job you need it to do. Sure, me too, an mpc at the mo. But wouldn’t it be great if we didn’t have to do this? One less device needed to drag around to jams/gigs etc?

G0n35y · 2015-05-10T14:56:41.000Z

""elektroon"":

[quote=" J0n35y"]I’ve been using my AK with Live for a while now and work around the midi sequencing using clips. My clips are the same length as my AK sequencer patterns and, being Live, I can hot switch between synths willy nilly to “target” the AK’s midi output that way. So while it isn’t sequencing from the AK I’m at least getting a similar experience. Overbridge will tighten everything up nicely I suspect.

Not sure I fully understand your working? Target a midi output? You’re essentially saying though that you’re having to use another sequencer as the one in the Keys doesn’t do the job you need it to do. Sure, me too, an mpc at the mo. But wouldn’t it be great if we didn’t have to do this? One less device needed to drag around to jams/gigs etc?[/quote]
I don’t really need the AK to do anything more than it does. Maybe if I didn’t use a laptop or OT I’d think differently but I’m happy with my hybridised set up. Yes, I’m using another sequencer alongside the AK but that’s fine for me - they work together nicely. Those who’ll be using OB will be used to that anyway.
Of course it’d be nice to have midi sequencing and to not cart around extra gear but was the AK ever intending as a studio/gig workstation centrepiece? Never seemed that way to me.

H445 · 2015-05-10T15:09:50.000Z

What a long read of a topic. I wish there was more constructive conversation in here and it seems like this ones just going to keep on going. Ill stay out of the politics.

I see the points on both sides, and am happy with whatever Elektron decides to give us. I bought the machine after researching and specifically being aware that there was no midi implementation on the sequencer. It is clearly documented, and my thoughts, if you don’t rtfm and specs before purchasing its your own fault. However, the fact that we can record live into the sequencer, and that same live information is also transmitted via midi makes me wonder if there is any type of conversion already going on one way, but not the other.

As for overbridge - “Sequencing via DAW” - I will be very excited to see what level of control we will actually have to the sequencer. If we have very deep control (step/plock etc) I can see why Elektron would opt for a proprietary language over midi. Because in the end, midi can limit the overall featureset and level of control. It was invented over 30 years ago, technology has come a long way since then.

This being the case, Even if the Keys/A4 do not gain the ability for midi sequencing, I wonder if some awesome user could think up a usb to midi interface utilizing the proprietary language and convert that out to midi (arduino based etc). If sequencing via DAW is enabled from overbridge, Im sure someone will find a way into taking advantage of that even if Elektron can not implement it directly in their OS. After all, Elektron seems to encourage their users to expand on what they have laid out for us.

All this being said, I would personally love to see a budget priced machine from Electron that does nothing but sequence midi and maybe even battery powered (or even with a super cheap digital 8bit midi chip for internal voicing for on the go), but have the same structure of their current sequencers. This wouldn’t take away functionality of my current machine (I would still have access to all tracks and voices) with the added bonus of the sync technology and being able to control external gear. Or also to keep producing for my external gear but without having it readily available. If I were to buy an OT, I would probably want to use it as an OT, not as a midi sequencer just to work around current limitations.

I hope this post was a little more insightful then some of the others, and hope the previous ranting didn’t discourage the Elektron folks from checking up on this thread.

AdamJay · 2015-05-10T15:27:29.000Z

""H445"":

All this being said, I would personally love to see a budget priced machine from Electron that does nothing but sequence midi

Of course it does more than just midi, but I think used Mk1 MonoMachines ($500) are great midi sequencers for the price.

Massive polyphony capabilities, and 3 LFOs x 6 tracks.
You get a quality digital synth as well, which you can choose not to use.
The 18 LFOs are shared between synth/fx tracks and midi tracks, but even when I use 5 LFOs on an aggressively patched single voice across two tracks on my Mk2+, I’m left with more LFOs for midi sequencing than the AK has all together.

It’s my only midi sequencer between Rytm, A4, and MnM.

H445 · 2015-05-10T15:55:09.000Z

""AdamJay"":

Of course it does more than just midi, but I think used Mk1 MonoMachines ($500) are great midi sequencers for the price.

Completely understand and agree, but a machine specifically geared towards midi-sequencing as opposed to synthesis would probably bridge that gap that everyone is looking for, be super cheap to manufacture and low power consumption.

AdamJay · 2015-05-10T16:27:20.000Z

""H445"":

a machine specifically geared towards midi-sequencing as opposed to synthesis would probably bridge that gap that everyone is looking for…

Ah, but there in lies the rub.

Not “everyone” is looking for that. The moment Elektron does that, you’ll have plenty of folks with ARs and OTs saying “no! don’t spend resources on that! Give us a user installable mk2 OT upgrade card for OverBridge, or Rytm’s ring mod BD!”

And on the super cheap part. A company that hand makes their products in Sweden is not going to fill that space. You’re paying for the benefits and compensation of people in a very first world country, not underaged Chinese workers that work 80 hours at the will of an exploitative government that undervalues its currency for trade purposes.

And this is the crux of the entire thread.
You can never please everyone.

My point is there are solutions that already exist. They are affordable, and they are, in many ways, quite powerful.

H445 · 2015-05-10T17:29:42.000Z

Right with you on that, As a Keys user, that’s just a personal opinion of what would bridge the gap. If I owned other Elektron gear already, my stance would probably be different.

The super cheap bit I was getting to, I just mean without the need to do any ad/da conversions and a very basic soundfont engine even, the cost of materials and production would be very cheap, leaving the company the room to ensure quality is top notch like the rest of their gear. I understand that this is not completely relevant to the initial issue of the thread. But just an idea.

I’ll leave it here though, my opinion is out in the open. I would like to see this tackled by the community though - I’m decent with programming, and great with networking, so I do not see it as an impossible task. If the OS cant support it, maybe an external adapter could do the conversion. I’m sure the OS update for OB will open more doors for this kind of thing. I may just dabble with this myself, it sounds like it would be a fun project. On the same note, I wouldn’t want to step on Elektron dev’s toes if it is in the plans for the future as well.

So here we go, back at step #1… sigh lol

elektroon · 2015-05-10T19:55:37.000Z

[quote=“” AdamJay""]
Of course it does more than just midi, but I think used Mk1 MonoMachines ($500) are great midi sequencers for the price.
[/quote]

None going for that sort of price in this country unfortunately but, yeah, I’ve been pondering whether I should ditch the Analog and go for a Monomachine instead if midi sequencing really isn’t going to be implemented any time soon (as most people in this thread seem to think). As mentioned, I’d like to mix analog and digital poly sounds using an Elektron sequencer so maybe a Monomachine with an analog poly like a Tetra, even a Volca keys maybe, might be the answer.

A couple of things putting me off: Poly mode in the Monomachine looks to be all or nothing from the manual I think? So I think you can’t do poly on one track along with a couple of mono tracks at the same time. Is that right?

The other thing is I would have to painstakingly recreate all the patterns and songs I’ve created in the Analog again in the Monomachine as there’s no way to get them out of the machine. Which ironically wouldn’t be a problem if it could… do external midi sequencing… Argh!! (Yossarian voice )

AdamJay · 2015-05-10T20:44:22.000Z

""elektroon"":

A couple of things putting me off: Poly mode in the Monomachine looks to be all or nothing from the manual I think? So I think you can’t do poly on one track along with a couple of mono tracks at the same time. Is that right?

Correct. Poly mode on MnM is all or nothing. You get to poly one track and use no others while its in poly. However, you can use it as a creative tool, as you can select in realtime which track to poly, so the feature can work like a solo function if you like.
There is another way to get polyphony out of MnM, though. There is a DigiPro Ensemble machine (DENS) that will allow you to build poly chords in one track from a single waveform in the digibank (useable on Mk2 and Mk2+ models).

I’d like to mix analog and digital poly sounds using an Elektron sequencer so maybe a Monomachine with an analog poly like a Tetra, even a Volca keys maybe, might be the answer.

Good luck programming a Tetra without a computer. And if you don’t mind using a computer to program it, then you can use your computer’s midi sequencer as well!

But in all seriousness, the very FREE Oxford Overdrive and Immortal Waves digibanks turn the MnM into a very convincing and inspiring virtual analog. I’ve assembled my own digibank with a variety of waves, and all my deep baselines lately have come from using waves from each of those collection mixed in the DigiPro->DDRW synthesis machine and the bass is just massive. I’ll often run it through a compressor track, so I end up with 2 bands of sweepable EQ.

[quote]The other thing is I would have to painstakingly recreate all the patterns and songs I’ve created in the Analog again in the Monomachine as there’s no way to get them out of the machine. Which ironically wouldn’t be a problem if it could… do external midi sequencing… Argh!! (Yossarian voice )

[/quote]
Or record them with an Octatrack, and hey there’s yet another great midi sequencer than Elektron makes!

A4+MnM is a great combo. My favorite 1-2 punch, in fact.
Why only one Elektron? Save ye pennies!

elektroon · 2015-05-10T23:42:57.000Z

AdamJay

Correct. Poly mode on MnM is all or nothing. You get to poly one track and use no others while its in poly. However, you can use it as a creative tool, as you can select in realtime which track to poly, so the feature can work like a solo function if you like.
There is another way to get polyphony out of MnM, though. There is a DigiPro Ensemble machine (DENS) that will allow you to build poly chords in one track from a single waveform in the digibank (useable on Mk2 and Mk2+ models).

Good luck programming a Tetra without a computer. And if you don’t mind using a computer to program it, then you can use your computer’s midi sequencer as well!

I haven’t got a computer, mine packed up the other day and you don’t need a computer to programme a Tetra I understand.

But in all seriousness, the very FREE Oxford Overdrive and Immortal Waves digibanks turn the MnM into a very convincing and inspiring virtual analog. I’ve assembled my own digibank with a variety of waves, and all my deep baselines lately have come from using waves from

I do like the sound of the Monomachine and those examples sound really nice but not really analog, to me anyway.

Or record them with an Octatrack, and hey there’s yet another great midi sequencer than Elektron makes!

Well I could sample but that wouldn’t help for synth layering really. Also I don’t need an Octatrack to be able to do that even if I wanted to.

A4+MnM is a great combo. My favorite 1-2 punch, in fact.
Why only one Elektron?

Expense mostly. I can do everything at the mo using the mpc sequencer and an Analog though would rather lose the mpc if possible for less gear lugging.

Also something feels off about compensating for the midi inadequacies in the Elektron Analog by having to buy an additional Elektron. Doesn’t really sit right.

analogback · 2015-05-11T00:09:02.000Z

" Also something feels off about compensating for the midi inadequacies in the Elektron Analog by having to buy an additional Elektron. Doesn’t really sit right. "

well, that’s an unfortunate mindset because there’s no provision for external midi. There’s nothing on the faceplate, no room in the tracks and it was sold without midi so its not likely to eventuate. If they ever include midi it would be a rudimentary afterthought. The MPC is an awesome sequencer, if size is an issue there are smaller sequencers available. The discomfort will go away once you either sell the thing or change your attitude towards the machines, if you have an A4 why not use cv gate instead?

If I owned an analog keys i might be missing the midi sequencer more… it being a ‘flagship’ an all

elektroon · 2015-05-11T04:38:32.000Z

[quote=“” analogback""]
there’s no provision for external midi. There’s nothing on the faceplate, no room in the tracks and it was sold without midi so its not likely to eventuate.
[/quote]

You could say the same thing about the Machinedrum but it was added to that.

""analogback"":

If they ever include midi it would be a rudimentary afterthought

As long as it was poly, that would be ok.

""analogback"":

why not use cv gate instead?

Limited cv controllable digital synth options and not polyphonic.

XponentOne · 2015-05-11T08:46:56.000Z

Have to admit, when I got my keys I didnt realise it couldnt sequence midi - pure assumption on my part though. Luck as have it I dont need it to sequence midi right now but the option would be nice. Id love to see a pure sequencer from elektron though, cv and midi, 16-32 tracks, ton of mod sources and recording of movements etc… I’d buy it! I’d imagine with the nature of the tech they could get it in at a relatively low price point too - could hook in new users to their instrument lines maybe? Im no businessman though.