MIDI Clock Sync Delay In Ableton Live

ginger · 2014-05-17T15:46:18.000Z

I’ve had an A4 for a while now, and always had the MIDI clock sync delay set to around -35ms from memory. I never had too much of a problem with this, as also had a Strymon Timeline delay attached permanently to the A4, so the problem I’m now having wouldn’t have been apparent…

Now that I also have the AR, and having switched my delay box to a send on my mixer as a send effect, I’ve noticed that the setting for MIDI sync clock delay needs to be changed from day to day, as the delay required changes!

So I’m receiving MIDI clock and transport from live via USB for both AR & A4, both send audio into a Xone 92 mixer, which sends out to the inputs on an Apogee Duet 2 (old version), and I’m monitoring though the outputs of that sound card. Both USB go into a USB hub, if that makes any difference, and I’m running OS X on a 2010 iMac.

It’s getting annoying having to line up both machines listening to the metronome in Live every time I want to record.

I’m wondering if other people are having similar problems with multiple machines, whether it’s possible I’ve had the same problem all along and never noticed it (I make a lot of dub techno and ambient, and delays are part and parcel of the synth layers), and any suggestions to alleviate the problem.

t · 2014-05-17T16:35:37.000Z

Can you give a bit more details on your setup? What sequencer/DAW are you using and is your delay an external box hooked up to the outboard mixer, or are you using effects inside your DAW? A drawing of your setup might help.

renasent · 2014-05-17T23:32:18.000Z

He’s just told us all of that.
I am eager too hear if anyone else has this happening as i have a very similar setup, but using an RME UCX souncard. I also monitor through the soundcard outputs. Sync and zero latency monitoring are real important to me too… Sorry Ginger, i’ve not got mine yet so can’t help.

cuckoomusic · 2014-05-19T21:08:48.000Z

I’m also experiencing varying sync latency between the Rytm and the Keys, in turbo MIDI mode, using a standard MIDI cable. I haven’t tried this with OS 1.01 though. But if I switch on the metronome on both units, they’re off by a varying degree every time I press stop and play.

I haven’t poked around with MIDI sync that much before, but how tight should I expect two Elektron MIDI boxes to get? Are they usually dead on tight?

blancodisco · 2014-05-20T01:09:45.000Z

I don’t have my AR or a 2nd Elecktron device to compare with just yet, but what happens if you slave your 2nd Elektron device with a midi cable from the first (master) which is slaving to Ableton over USB. I’ve been syncing an LXR drum machine in this manner to record Audio into Ableton with and seems to work just fine for me. I’m using an offbeat audio interface, the Phonic Firefly 808 Universal on a 2006 MacPro. That way you just have to adjust the midi delay setting once in Ableton. Just a thought.

invisible_acropolis · 2014-05-20T02:27:14.000Z

""ginger"":

So I’m receiving MIDI clock and transport from live

long story short , this is your problem… modern computers generate horrible MIDI clock signals, and Live in particular adds even more crappiness to it

the topic of midi sync is massive in general, but my suggestion for anyone using at least 2 sequencer type devices is to have a DEDICATED external midi clock source… as in, not using your computer or one of the devices in question as the master

your mileage may vary, and im sure we will hear plenty of “but im just trying to jam out, man!” and “works good enough for me!” and blah blah so on and so forth

but if you want tight midi sync and dont want to deal with the hassle of correcting recordings, setting up delays, etc. etc. - get a midi clock generator AND a MIDI patchbay (unless the clock source has multiple outs) - then route the clock into the patchbay and then a cable to each device

basically, midi clock should come from a hardware clock generator of some kind, and all sequencers should slave to that… it still wont be atomically accurate (unless you spring for something like an innerclock device or something) but its lightyears better than slaving between devices, and especially from a computer

ginger · 2014-05-20T04:10:30.000Z

I will try to sync the second box with MIDI instead of USB and report back, maybe that will solve it.

I’m looking into the MIDI clock generator idea too, that could be a plan, another little box for me to buy! The Innerclock system looks great, expensive though; ERM Midiclock looks more my kind of price. Any other suggestions?

t · 2014-05-20T04:34:25.000Z

Recent versions of Live should work well as a MIDI clock master. It however works best to use a single, good MIDI interface and then hook up all the machines you want to sync to that with a Thru box, or as a daisy-chain using the Thru ports on your machines. Don’t use multiple interfaces for sync. Make sure you don’t have other USB devices on the same bus.

Recording an monitoring audio through a computer will always give latency. Live has good tools to limit and control this; read the manual and follow the setup lessons from the built-in help.

Do not use an external clock source with Live. Live is horrible at syncing to external clock, so this will only give worse results.

It’s still not clear if the problem you report is really a MIDI sync timing issue, or rather a latency issue with the audio you record back in; make sure you understand the difference and solve the right problem.

t · 2014-05-20T04:38:49.000Z

[quote=“” cuckoomusic""]
I’m also experiencing varying sync latency between the Rytm and the Keys, in turbo MIDI mode, using a standard MIDI cable. I haven’t tried this with OS 1.01 though. But if I switch on the metronome on both units, they’re off by a varying degree every time I press stop and play.

I haven’t poked around with MIDI sync that much before, but how tight should I expect two Elektron MIDI boxes to get? Are they usually dead on tight?
[/quote]

Very tight. Make sure you’re sending/receiving clock as well and not only start/stop.

invisible_acropolis · 2014-05-20T05:20:49.000Z

""t"":

Recent versions of Live should work well as a MIDI clock master. It however works best to use a single, good MIDI interface and then hook up all the machines you want to sync to that with a Thru box, or as a daisy-chain using the Thru ports on your machines. Don’t use multiple interfaces for sync. Make sure you don’t have other USB devices on the same bus.

Live has never been and is still not a good source for MIDI clock… and this is fairly well known

also, daisy chaining MIDI devices introduces noticeable latency (in ms) at every point in the chain further from the source device, increasingly as you go down the line - which is also very common knowledge

all the information is out there - plenty of research has been done in this area over the past 30 years

William_WiLD · 2014-05-20T12:14:11.000Z

If you have computer in your chain, you will have some Jitter issue…

Hi you can watch this for the manual sync procedure :

If you want something better, you can looking for a sync box will act as your master clock and all will be slave to this, include the computer :
_ SYNC GEN 2 PRO
[http://www.innerclocksystems.com/New%20ICS%20Sync-Gen%20II%20Pro.html](http://www.innerclocksystems.com/New ICS Sync-Gen II Pro.html)
_ ACME 4
http://www.s-n-d.com/acme4e_a.html[url=“http://www.s-n-d.com/acme4e_a.html”]http://www.s-n-d.com/acme4e_a.html
_ KOMA elektronik RH301
http://koma-elektronik.com/?product=rh301-rhythm-workstation-utility-tool

Hope it’s help
Cheers

t · 2014-05-20T13:11:27.000Z

[quote=““invisible acropolis””]
Live has never been and is still not a good source for MIDI clock… and this is fairly well known
[/quote]

Depends on your definition of “good”. If you start measuring, you’ll very likely find devices with tighter timing, but I’m pretty damn sure you won’t be able to hear the difference in a real-world test.

Also, this is actually besides the point since Live does sync badly to an external clock source, so if you want to combine audio recording and sound generation inside of Live with external instruments then you don’t have the option of using one of those “better” external clock sources anyway.

[quote=““invisible acropolis””]
also, daisy chaining MIDI devices introduces noticeable latency (in ms) at every point in the chain further from the source device, increasingly as you go down the line - which is also very common knowledge
[/quote]

That’s bullshit. On almost all MIDI devices, the THRU port provides the exact same signal as comes in on the IN port because it’s physically connected to the IN port. This is actually in the original MIDI specs, complete with a circuit diagram for a suggested implementation.

cuckoomusic · 2014-05-20T16:03:37.000Z

MIDI sync is now very tight between the Rytm and Keys after the 1.01 update!

Purusha · 2014-05-21T08:45:16.000Z

Have to say, midi clock timing on my desktop system is actually pretty good.

I have Cubase 7.5 (PC) sending midi clock out of 3 RME Hammerfall Multiface units, all connected to the PCI-E bus.

I’ve never had great experiences with USB MIDI interfaces though. I suspect USB doesn’t really have the right protocol for this kind of real-time mechanism. Just my anecdotal experience though.

ginger · 2014-06-08T15:24:13.000Z

An update!

I changed my audio interface, from an Apogee Duet 2, to a Focusrite Scarlett 18i20. I needed the extra ins so that I could use my AU FX on each voice, and this interface totally fitted my needs. I love the Duet 2, and I’m keeping it for now.

So now I have the MIDI out of the 18i20 connected to the MIDI in of the AR, the thru going to the in of the A4, and have not had the same problems I was experiencing before with USB. I’m still testing it all out, but as far as I can tell, the setting in MIDI clock sync delay can remain at the same value.

Looks like I killed two birds with one stone.

owensands · 2014-06-09T20:41:55.000Z

My Midi clock sync is rock solid with bitwig studio. Running an A4 with LXR daisy chained. Will be adding a rytm shortly too. Also had ableton working fine as well. Had to massage ableton a bit but it wasnt bad. My custom PC rig is a beast though and I can work with a buffer size of 64ms pretty consistently with RME MADI hammerfall PCIe card.