Mid-Side recording with an active mic and a passive mic... Tips?

The Lounge General Discussion
1

Hi All,

just wondering if there are any tips on recording in the Mid-Side technique … those who know it will know what i mean …

will be using a powered Rode NT-22 (interchangeable heads, directional and omni) and a generic copy of a passive Shure 57 (directional).

any hints on which one should face forwards and which one should be at a 90 degree difference?

subject of recording is a nylon string guitar detuned one semitone in a medium size room.

any gotchas, things to watch out for, and is this just a too-strange combination of microphones to get anything more than vaguely interesting results?

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Make sure the heads are as close together as possible, also make sure there is a 90degree angle on your “side” mic!

It’s easy to f#^* up and you will end up with phase cancellations and dips in your spectrum, because the mics will be close, but never exactly in the same place!

Why do you do this? You need a wide stereo spread of a guitar recording?

I would use the Røde over the shoulder towards the neck and close mic the body with the shure and mix the two, you’ll have control over the timbre and you’ll have a mono, but more foolproof result! I like MS for drumkits or as an experimental alternative to XY recording (which I end up using most of the time, but you need two identical mics)!

Have fun!

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You need a Mic with a figure of 8 pattern for the ‘sides’ (obviously couldn’t be your Shure)

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many cheers for the responses … actually going to err on the side of generous and let my dj friend continue to use (or potentially use) the Rode.

so my options now are pretty much a lot more simple, haha. Shure 57 copy. ironically enough the in-ear Shure headphones i purchased cheaply recently are also a copy, but they work okay all the same.

just scored a QuataFire 610 from eBay, $95au free postage … those soundcards have the sweetest converters i ever did hear. but most users couldn’t figure out the driver so ESi stopped making them :smiley:

5

I’ve done lots of acoustic guitar ( classical ) recording over the years. Unless there’s a tangible reason you might want to alter the stereo imagery in the mix
I’d really recommend a matched pair of decent condenser mics in an XY pair for the most natural results. Set & forget.

AKG C414 are probably my faves.

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cheers for the share…

for now i will try close room mic with the passive directional.

shall read about the akg’s

7

no probs. Good luck with an SM57 ( copy ) close to an acoustic guitar though - you’re going to get an awful lot of noise off the body, as well as finger / pick sounds…

I’d advise going away from the soundhole a bit more up the fret board, but it’s going to be a struggle. At least close-miking may mitigate any acoustic problems from the room
though I guess, so if you can find the right mic placement & possibly a bit of EQ in the mix you may be ok. You might need a bit of reverb adding as close-miked acoustic may well sound a bit odd
otherwise

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You’ll be fine! SM57 or other cheap dynamics are great for acoustic guitars! There are
no real rules
to follow.
Just do a few test recordings and experiments!

(The last thing you’ll need is a pair of mics that’ll cost you $1200, who recommends that!? Unless you are studying recording techniques or make serious money in a professional studio environment)

I had great succes with cheap Sony electret mics or knock off large membrame condensors on acoustic guitars, but after a number of recordings you’ll notice that it’s the result that counts and what you want to do with the recording?? Further process? Mix with other instruments? Live amplification? What, preview, what are you doing, eh?

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9

after recording, there would be a combination of rms and peak style compression of a nylon string recording, possibly vocals; neo-romantic protest songs with electro-folk references, i would suppose.

also, capturing found sounds in the field, either of birds, or again of nylon string guitar, with forest rustling hopefully as a nuanced background sound.

again, this would receive some compression, volume levelling, and maybe some eq and reverb to introduce fullness to the tone, perhaps subtract some high scratch sounds or even do an automated fade here or there.

then export the master and share on bandcamp i suppose.

possibly indulge in a music video or three.

10

Great concept! Don’t overthink it and f*%%^ the f%}%£ing rules and jargon, just do it! :wink:

Ooh and do not forget to share the results!

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yes so very completely and sensationally true :slight_smile:

as regards gear i need a $25.000 top of the line classical/spanish nylon string and a dozen of the best mics from a few manufacturers, although the 57 copy should do for now.

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Best advice on mic placement I’ve been given was to let the artist play and then get close to the guitar with one ear and move around the body/fretboard until you hear that golden tone. Record multiple placements and experiment!

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i’m playing the nylon string and placing the mic also … perhaps i could rig up a cantilevered hook and pulley system and headphones with a long cord … realtime placement, performance and monitoring, all at once.

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14

Easier to design and build a robot guitar player with built-in binaural mics!

(hmmm, that’s my summer project sorted)

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building a CS-80 clone perhaps could be more fun as regards instant gratification, as the robot would need to spend a few years learning how to play the nylon string

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oh. sorry. I just thought I’d share a bit of knowledge from working in a professional recording environment for 20 yrs… it’s ok, I’ll shut up then :slight_smile:

Also, the OP did start the thread talking about doing the recording in M/S…not, “I have no proper mics or money to do this & just need to do a basic guitar recording, any tips?”

“You’ll be fine! SM57 or other cheap dynamics are great for acoustic guitars! There are
no real rules”
^
You see, as a professional sound engineer I can’t really agree with that :slight_smile: But I agree it’s got to be in-line with the end-application / result required.

If I was recording a classical guitar album for someone & I popped a '57 onto the stand… well, you can imagine…

btw - my studio/pro audio rental firm hire a pair of C414s out for £15 for a weekend, guess that’s pretty standard sort of cost … Not a huge price to pay to do something properly… Just sayin’ :slight_smile:

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yes after the active Rode NT mic was removed from the equation, it’s difficult really to know where to go.

the main thing is to not censor oneself in the creative adventure.

the instrument is an ornery nylon string that is a constant balancing act to accomodate for intonation issues. possible to tame but requires constant monitoring, bending into tune realtime.

project is neo-romantic protest songs, guitar and vocals and in fact, maybe some Machinedrum played through quality Genelec monitors, placed in a resonant part of the room. It could sound cool, perhaps.

Personally I love this quote: “Whatever you can’t do with recording you can almost make up for in the producing. EQ is a life saver and it can make you sound like you did the best recording job of your life.”

So, although i’m accustomed to a higher level of quality of instrument, microphone and soundcard, going to soldier on all the same. Tally ho, sally forth, stiff upper lip and all that.

I know all too well how inappropriate the current recording scenario description is, however, and could only imagine how extremely irritating it must be to read, as a recording professional of 20 years, say. I understand it portrays myself in a light that might in fact not be particularly accurate as regards usual gear choice. And yet, variation is the spice of life.

As regards when to record, i must be untethered by time factor, thus could never rent a mic. For other people it is cool, but not for me.

Lol it would be hilarious if a professional recording engineer rocked up to the session, popped a 57 mic on the stand and said “Have at it!” to the classical performer. Could be an hilarious sketch to produce for Vimeo :smiley:

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edit.

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lol, no really it was the changing of the horse mid-stream. Suddenly, instead of this salubrious scenario involving a quality mic, there was … a 57 copy. It’s just awkward. The most logical thing to say is: Dude, re-spec the project.

And yet, husc rocks up and provides that extra prompting to continue to go for it. And so i shall … I mean, really, something valuable could be achieved from the recording sessions. Nothing like what it would be with a Rode though. And yet, diamonds in the rough and all that … talking of such, anyone have any opinions on Beck’s magnificent opus, “Mellow Gold”?

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The forum is here for all opinions, personalities and experience levels

Typing something we may have rather done a better way is normal, no need to quit … from my perspective, the highroad is to acknowledge something could have been phrased better and move on from it wiser … seems a shame to take that wisdom elsewhere

I’m not entirely sure it’s a 100% straight reply

Anyway … it’s what you do, and whether you like it that counts, not how you did it, but there are obviously lots of members here able to share best practice tips and this is great if you have the kit, if not we have to find ways to get the best from what we have

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