Lumatone

[Jukka]

I only have novice experience with both.

Let me make an analogy. There are many many different ways people choose to tune their guitars. You can play any song with any tuning, it comes down to how well and how easily you can play a particular song with a particular tuning. Often people change tunings because it changes the way they make music. Some people get very comfortable changing between different tunings and do it fluidly. The differences can be subtle, or radical, depending on the person, and the changes made.

[thetechnobear]

@blipson_old

I’m asking about the impact on the playability that one experiences between the two different layouts.

I think @Jukka expressed it very well…

no one is saying anything is better/worst, rather they have different experiences.
so the hex layout, may for some scale layouts have interesting ‘patterns’,
of course (with enough keys) you could pick the same tones out on a rectangle or with a piano for that matter - so its down to association not ‘ability’ to play,

how well that association works on microtonal Im not sure… I guess it depends on number of tones in a scale, and also how the rows are offset (this is what give the relationship between adjacent notes)

of course polychromatic is also about association too…
I think with microtonal scales the issue is there becomes a lot of tones, so finding your way around them is more difficult (than remembering 12) , hence the use of colour - but spacial placement could help too.

also from the few hex controllers Ive seen , they seem to allow for more keys in a small space - again something important for microtonal scales
( I guess because we hit the centre of the key, the ‘corners’ are not really used on rectangles/squares - yes I recognise this is not true on an expressive controller where you do slide into them - but lumatone is not doing this )

@blipson_old

Wait, that’s not right, is it? The squares on the LS each have their own discrete note, and there’s a small gap between each square where you get no response at all.

theoretically, the linnstrument is continuous - but correct, its not strictly continuous (like the soundplane and continuum) … iirc for pitch slides, its firmware interpolates, to ‘jump the gap’ (which is very small) … so whilst you can play continuously (not sure at what resolution) , Im not sure if you could place your finger between notes and accurately get the position… BUT I don’t have a linnstrument, so can’t test to see how well it can compensate. (it does do a very good job in this area)

[blipson_old]

To clarify: the LinnStrument isn’t continuous. The keys will only output MIDI notes 0-127. The only way to achieve something in between is to play a note, then pitchbend into the in-between by sliding in the X direction when you’ve assigned X to pitchbend in the settings. On a conventional keyboard, you’d do the same by playing a note and operating the pitchbend controller on its left side. Without this setting, the LinnStrument will play a piano-style glissando when you glide in the X direction. There is no intermediate position between LinnStrument keys; when you press down anywhere on the LinnStrument, you get one of MIDI notes 0-127 or no response at all.

So apparently key shape and layout (hex, square) on an isomorphic layout makes no appreciable difference–you get used to anything (within reason). I wonder how forgiving the Lumatone is the farther away you get from a hexagon’s center. Color is important for keeping yourself oriented because even after you’ve internalized the shapes of intervals and chords, when you change registers or any other relatively big change in hand position, it’s too easy to miss a little bit on these isomorphic controllers that have so many keys. Even a fretless bass presents a challenge for a jump of more than a fourth when you don’t have face or side dots.

[thetechnobear]

@blipson_old

the LinnStrument isn’t continuous. The keys will only output MIDI notes 0-127. The only way to achieve something in between is to play a note, then pitchbend into the in-between by sliding in the X direction when you’ve assigned X to pitchbend in the settings

you are confusing midi protocol implementation with the hardware…

but even using midi does not make it non-continuous (well, not at the 7bit level you pointing out)

the way MPE works (and also if you want to play microtonal over midi) is to send notes on different midi channels. - this means that the pitchbend can be applied before the note on message, which in turn means you can play immediately off-scale.

set the pitchbend to +/- 1 semitone , and you can now specify a tone to around 0.01 cents ! ( 1/8192) , so sure thats not continuous , but close enough

in practice this is not used for MPE, since the pitchbend also allows us to slide continuously, this is why the MPE standard defaults to +/-48 semis - to give a 2 octave range slide.
(MPE+ extends this further and has been used by continuums for a long time, but is not widely supported)

of course, things change in midi 2.0, but for now MPE works well for this kind of use - Ive used it for ages (Eigenharp/Soundplane) and implemented it in a few things too, both on the controller side, and sound engine.

[blipson_old]

@thetechnobear

you are confusing midi protocol implementation with the hardware…

I’m asking after how a person can play a LinnStrument, what a musician can do with the instrument musically: you cannot play a LinnStrument in a continuous manner. I’m takling about actual possible user experience, which is the same question I have for hex keys vs. square: what is the difference in actual musical use? MIDI controllers only matter in this context as musical instrument. To call a LinnStrument continuous implies it’s even remotely like a Continuum to a player, but a LinnStrument is no more like a Continuum that an Arturia Keystep, whether you use its MPE setting or not. The Lumatone doesn’t mention MPE capability anywhere I’ve seen.

[thetechnobear]

@blipson_old

you cannot play a LinnStrument in a continuous manner. I’m takling about actual possible user experience,

Doesn’t turning off quantization do exactly this?

[GovernorSilver]

Dylan Horvath worked for years to get an isomorphic keyboard controller, particularly for microtonal music composition and performance. He sort of took the handoff from Siemen Terpstra, who designed a similar controller under the Terpstra named but failed to get it to market.

Having attempted to play microtonal music on a standard keyboard, I have a decent understanding of the appeal of an isomorphic keyboard. For example, I loaded up a patch on my Emu XL-7 with a 19-tone equal temperament tuning, which maps MIDI note numbers to 19 pitches per octave instead of 12. I quickly found that remembering which note is what on a standard keyboard is a challenge, because the C key on the keyboard that is up an octave from middle C, no longer triggers the octave up note, but some note lower than the octave. And it just gets worse as one travels further away on the keyboard from middle C. This lack of consistency of how keys are mapped to notes, from microtonal scale to scale, is why microtonal composers don’t like working with the standard keyboard.

Microtonal composers rely primarily on sequencers when working electronic music gear, due to the note layout inconsistency problem with standard keyboards.

The FAQ attempts to explain the isomorphic keyboard:

FAQ — Lumatone Isomorphic Keyboard

So the main reasons somebody interested in microtonal music would want to invest in a Lumatone:

1. They can afford it.
2. They want to explore harmony built on a microtonal scale - simply bending a guitar string, using a slide, using a pitch bender, etc. is not as optimal as having all the harmony notes you want to use all laid out on an instrument.
3. Lumatone can be programmed for the microtonal scale, with color-coding to assist in locating where the octaves are (if it’s a repeating octave scale) and other desired landmark notes.

[blipson_old]

@thetechnobear

Doesn’t turning off quantization do exactly this?

Oh, right, I’m a doofus, it will indeed do exactly that. It’s kind of useless, though, for playing microtonality, as you pointed out, because of the difficulty of playing accurately, but yes, it’s a row-by-row Continuum if you want. To send arbitrary single note number/pitchbend combos per pad to assure staying within a microtuning, you need a third party converter like Universal Tuning Editor, which is also set up for Lumatone. So far, I haven’t been able to get it to work for LinnStrument, the MIDI monitor indicating the software has no effect even though it allows me to select the proper MIDI in and out. But the LS works fine with 19 equal divisions of the octave (EDO) out of the box, so I haven’t worked on solving that.

@GovernorSilver

So the main reasons somebody interested in microtonal music would want to invest in a Lumatone:
2. They want to explore harmony built on a microtonal scale - simply bending a guitar string, using a slide, using a pitch bender, etc. is not as optimal as having all the harmony notes you want to use all laid out on an instrument.

I would say you require the Lumatone to go above 19 EDO. LinnStrument lays out microtuning fine with, for example Omnisphere, which maps MIDI notes to the selected microtuning without needing pitchbend information. I use LS/Omnisphere for 19 EDO and modify the LS’s lighting so that I can see octave jumps, making octave groups of 19 chromatic notes occur in ergonomic 5x4 blocks when you select the LS’s +5 setting for row offset.

I guess Omnisphere is limited to 128 MIDI notes, so that would be 6+ octaves of 19 EDO, which would be fine, but you’re down to three when you use row overlapping for playability on the LS. For 31 EDO, you’re down to a bit less than four octaves, and then like two with ergonomic row overlapping----not good. I started considering the Lumatone more closely when I saw Dolores’s performance on 55 EDO, which I think sounds really good. You’re going to need a lot of keys that each send their own note+pitchbend combo (not straight MIDI note mapped like Omnisphere’s microtuning option) to get a few octaves of 55 EDO with a patterned/overlapped layout that offers you a musically logical, ergonomically playable arrangement of keys. Her video shows that these larger number EDO’s are worth playing around with.

[GovernorSilver]

@blipson_old

I would say you require the Lumatone to go above 19 EDO. LinnStrument lays out microtuning fine with, for example Omnisphere, which maps MIDI notes to the selected microtuning without needing pitchbend information. I use LS/Omnisphere for 19 EDO and modify the LS’s lighting so that I can see octave jumps, making octave groups of 19 chromatic notes occur in ergonomic 5x4 blocks when you select the LS’s +5 setting for row offset.

I guess Omnisphere is limited to 128 MIDI notes, so that would be 6+ octaves of 19 EDO, which would be fine, but you’re down to three when you use row overlapping for playability on the LS. For 31 EDO, you’re down to a bit less than four octaves, and then like two with ergonomic row overlapping----not good. I started considering the Lumatone more closely when I saw Dolores’s performance on 55 EDO , which I think sounds really good. You’re going to need a lot of keys that each send their own note+pitchbend combo (not straight MIDI note mapped like Omnisphere’s microtuning option) to get a few octaves of 55 EDO with a patterned/overlapped layout that offers you a musically logical, ergonomically playable arrangement of keys. Her video shows that these larger number EDO’s are worth playing around with.

I merely provided 19-TET - which may or may not be identical to 19-EDO - some people really get uptight about TET vs EDO - as an example from my experience with the limitations of working with microtonal scales on a standard keyboard.

I’m more interested in that you’re already using your Linnstrument with microtonal scales. I suppose you could use it more like an isomorphic keyboard by orienting the Linnstrument in a diagonal fashion.

I see there are more than 19 pads in one row of the full size Linnstrument. I’m assuming yours is the full size one. So you’re working with 19-EDO with all 19 pitches in one row I take it?

I only played with 19-EDO for a little bit. I then tried 31-TET because I heard it was closer to “just intonation” (I barely understood what it really was at the time) and would give me “sweeter 3rds” or something… and that was even more confusing to deal with on standard keyboard.

Lumatone’s explanation of the isomorphic layout for microtonality is incomplete. One advantage is you map all the notes will use most often out of, say 55-EDO, to the bottom row of keys. The in-between notes you would use 2nd most would be the next row above - each of those “group 2” notes mapped to the key that is “between” two keys that represent notes that are above and below that note. The 3rd most used would be the next row above that, and so on. Maybe this gives an idea of why the Linnstrument hasn’t been a popular tool of choice for microtonal composers. Every note in every row is stacked directly above a note in the next row below - no “in between”.

I thought I saw a good image or other graphical representation of an isomorphic keyboard used for microtonal applications. When I Google this stuff, there’s too much talking and not enough showing.

You could make your Linnstrument more Lumatone-ish by tilting it so you get a similarly pyramid-like arrangement. You’d then be playing diamond-shaped “keys” instead of hex-shaped ones.

Another strategy for (conventional) keyboard note mapping that I’d started to look into but abandoned due to lack of time was working with 12-note subsets of the desired tuning. So for example, a 12-note subset of 55-EDO. If two keyboards are available, you can then have two 12-note subsets of 55-EDO, which may or may not be overlapping subsets, depending on your needs.

[blipson_old]

Yeah, I think there are enthusiasts deeply concerns with the subtleties of TET, EDO, etc. but I don’t have the time to become one of them. After years and careers, they can hear and identify tone relationships that I can’t possibly, which only goes to prove that tunings are cultural, not natural, but you need a long time before they feel natural, like speaking your native language.

I’m glad I went for the full-size LinnStrument because I’m quickly finding uses for the extra keys. I see no advantage at all to the LS 128 unless you need to save the money because the weight and size differences don’t make much difference to this already-light and compact controller.

For 19 EDO, I space the rows 5 microtones apart, as I do for the 12-note chromatic scale, i.e., spaced in fourths, like a bass guitar. In fact, I always tune my guitars in all fourths because I’m a bass player. The LS’s spacing choices are only 3, 5, 7, and NO OVERLAP. Then I customize the lighting to light up C in cyan and the remaining notes of C major in green. An extremely close approximation of the Western major scale is contained inside 19 EDO. This scheme provides landmarks all over the keyboard, feels kind of natural, and is the same as your idea about highlighting strategic subsets within EDO 55. I think it’s just luck that 19 EDO works out so neatly with the LS’s rectangle of squares. Other EDOs would take a lot of experimentation on the Lumatone to see what works best. Here’s a pic from the lighting controller app I use because I can’t take a photo right now:

You can see that every 5x4 block comprises an octave, with the bottom left note exactly an octave below that block’s top right note. This works out well for visually keeping track of what the hell you’re doing.

“Isomorphic” simply means that chords and intervals have the same geometry across the entire keyboard. This rectangle of squares is isomorphic. My guitar in all fourths is practically isomorphic because chords have the same shape across the fretboard, it’s just that the frets get narrower. I think guitarists are wacky for not doing as I do. There are other isometric configurations that have nothing to do with the Lumatone’s hexes. The piano isn’t isomorphic, but the advantage there is that you don’t have to watch your hands 24/7 to track their location. If you look at YouTube videos of LinnStrumentalists, you’ll see their eyes are locked on their hands 100% of the time, and that’s an issue and substantial downside that I expect the Lumatone to have as well.

[GovernorSilver]

I have to admit that my previous posts, if read a certain way, make Linnstrument’s layout looks non-isomorphic compared to Lumatone. And of course that’s not correct - the Linnstrument layout with the C major scale indicated is a legit isomorphic layout. And by extension, other grid-based layouts (Ableton Push, Novation Launchpad, etc.) can also be isomorphic.

While Terpstra failed to bring hardware to market, he seems to have at least put up a website for trying a variety of hex-based layouts. Too bad grid-based layouts are not available so we can compare relative merits of grid vs. hex layouts.

https://keyboard.snelgrove.science/

[blipson_old]

Maybe when Lumatone goes live, the devs will be available on their own forum for discussion. Meanwhile, Starr Labs includes 1 hex-job out of its 4 big controllers, indicating that this longtime manufacturer doesn’t consider one isomorphic design to differ much from others. There are probably other more important factors that are totally personal to the player, such as the button size compared to hand size or personal sense of ergonomics.

I used to have a Starr Labs controller, and unless they’ve totally revamped their construction, their keys are just not good enough. Their performance was really limited back then, and I expect they can’t compete with the likes of Linn, Lumatone, Keith McMillen et al.

[GovernorSilver]

I met Harvey Starr when I applied for a job at Starrlabs. I was never very good at C or C++ programming but back then I was fresh out of university, C++ was the language I worked with the most there, and thus I was stronger with C++ back then than I am today. He was willing to give me a chance to come onboard and up my coding game on the job, but said he couldn’t afford to pay me for more than part-time work. He shortly called later and said he found an experienced coder to to the work on a contract basis or something.

Anyway, he said the Microzone started out as a custom order from a composer in Hollywood. It was the first time anybody requested a honeycomb-like/hex type of layout. He didn’t say the composer’s name - from what I recall - but that composer sounded like somebody who has a pretty good idea of what he’s doing with microtonal music.

Southern California produced several influential microtonal composers/theorists in the 20th century: Erv Wilson, Harry Partch, Ivor Darreg. Any one of them could have influenced that Microzone customer.

One Erv Wilson layout:
http://www.harmonics.com/lucy/lsd/hexboard.html

Erv Wilson home page:
http://www.anaphoria.com/wilson.html

[blipson_old]

@blipson_old

@thetechnobear

Doesn’t turning off quantization do exactly this?

Oh, right, I’m a doofus, it will indeed do exactly that. It’s kind of useless, though, for playing

Wait a minute: I think we’re wrong and the LS cannot be played in a continuous manner after all.

When you turn off quantize, the LS will let you play a horizontal continuum within a pad. The center of the pad is the note, but if you strike the pad off center with quantize off, you’ll get a continuum in either direction. But when you reach the groove between pads, there’s a discontinuity, whose size depends on how you’ve set bend range. The options for bend range are ±2, 3, 12, and 24. I tried them all, and none of them continues the continuum into the neighboring pad. I would think that setting the bend range at some precise fractional amount would result in a continuum, or something much closer, but there are no other bend range options.

Here’s what the manual says about the quantize option:

2. QUANTIZE If on, striking a new note anywhere within the note pad will result in the same perfectly quantized semitone.

Then after you strike the note, moving your finger will produce unquantized pitch slides or vibratos. This is the equivalent of having frets when you strike the note but no frets (permitting vibrato or pitch slides) while holding the note after the initial strike. This permits fast play in perfect tune, yet with the ability to perform expressive pitch gestures at any time.

If off, striking different locations within the pad will produce different pitches. For example, striking exactly between 2 note pads will produce a 1/4 tone that is exactly between the center pitches of the 2 note pads.

I fooled myself in my quick test the other day by tapping around, both short distances and longer ones and not paying close enough attention to whether I was sliding or re-actuating a pad. The short distance re-actuations were truly continuous (because they remained within a pad), then my longer leaps to the non-center of another pad were sufficiently out of tune to make me think it was continuous. I probably mixed in some longer slides, but as the manual says, the slides become continuous after you strike the note. The sum total was that I gave myself the illusion of total continuity. As I said, I’m a doofus. If you think I’m still missing something, let me know.

[thetechnobear]

@blipson_old

The center of the pad is the note, but if you strike the pad off center with quantize off, you’ll get a continuum in either direction. But when you reach the groove between pads, there’s a discontinuity, whose size depends on how you’ve set bend range. The options for bend range are ±2, 3, 12, and 24. I tried them all, and none of them continues the continuum into the neighboring pa

if I understand you correctly… that was the limitation I was referring too…

@thetechnobear

theoretically, the linnstrument is continuous - but correct, its not strictly continuous (like the soundplane and continuum) … iirc for pitch slides, its firmware interpolates, to ‘jump the gap’ (which is very small) … so whilst you can play continuously (not sure at what resolution) , Im not sure if you could place your finger between notes and accurately get the position… BUT I don’t have a linnstrument, so can’t test to see how well it can compensate. (it does do a very good job in this area)

as I didn’t have a linnstrument… I wasn’t sure if the interpolation could handle the gap when you initially place your finger… if i understood correctly, what it does when you slide is ‘predict’ you’re going to slide across the gap.

anyway… I think this kind of thing (emulating other things on a linnstrument) would be better discussed on the Linnstrument thread as, its not really about the Lumatone.

It be nice to discuss things the merits of the Lumatone here.

back on tropic:
been getting emails apparently they sold out of batch #1 , and I think have moved onto batch #2, seems each batch, increases the price a bit.

good to see people have been buying/supporting it.

[blipson]

This is worth a listen: her rhythms differ from her other YT tracks:

'sound-transformations' for the Lumatone keyboard 56 EDO

It’s good to see the firmware updated as recently as a month ago. I wonder how many they’ve actually sold, which you can’t tell because they’ve been on the 4th batch where “they’ve been selling fast” for more than six months.

[xenharm]

I feel a similar way to you. I don’t really see many advantages to the larger keys on the lumatone compared with the linnstrument. Also, going by the videos I’ve seen I’ve noticed that the linnstrument facilitates more creative modes of expression and the result ends up being more musical in a way. I generally find that examples on the lumatone are quite musically square and almost solely focused on incorporating microtonal tunings, although this isn’t necessary a problem in of itself, it just depends what your goals are. But 1,500 for the linnstrument compared with 4,000 for the lumatone just so you have physical keys and the whole hex layout really makes it a hard buy for me. Something also feels a tad scammy about the way they are promoting the lumatone. I wasn’t impressed by the page on their website going on about how much better it is than the linnstrument. I’m not seeing any of that on Roger Linn’s website. That guy seems pretty down to earth.

[whim]

@Jeanne

Of course Lumatone would be even more perfect for me, but I don’t have that kind of money

Me neither but they do have financing available now at least (up to 24 months/ “as low as $167 a month”)

[EDIT: Only available in the USA]

Payment Plans — Lumatone Isomorphic Keyboard

[whim]

This video might help some people understand the appeal and value of Lumatone (and microtonality) from an intuitive, musical perspective. Lots of jamming, no math

Lumatone Artist Spotlight | MIKE BATTAGLIA

[pmags]

Any Lumatone owners here on Elektronauts? Would be curious to hear “real world” feedback on this unique controller.