Looking for speaker/setup advice

reeloy · 2023-12-19T17:47:12.847Z

…stick to ur kh120 plan…best nearfield stereostage u can get…don’t worry about loudness fun…
any sub in addition will do for that…no real need to spent that much money for a dedcated neumann sub…subs won’t really help u mix accurately, if the whole setting is not prepped super properly…so, keep in mind, sub is only for the fun experience while creating, for ur final mixes u better have an option to switch the sub off, so u can trust u ears via most precise nearfield monitoring like kh120ies and some accurate analyzizer readings for the low end…

so, for now, best option is just to add any half decent 12" sub to ur genelecs…that will do all the trick…

fill that shelf with heaps of old books and make that ur back end of ur studio desk…cover it with molton, if u don’t wanna look at it…
any other dedicated room treatment won’t make any essential difference, if not done with quite some further investments…

so change ur orientation in that room and use the staircase side more for a sidedesk for the rest of ur equipment and face forward to the the bookshelf wall…no worries about stereo field while jamming…

Scyphozoa · 2023-12-19T18:19:13.249Z

Lum:

I decided to place my setup next to the stairs so my speakers will be 1-1,5m from the wall.

For what it’s worth, this will hurt their low-end response.
Based on that 1–1.5m distance, you’re likely to get a big cancellation around 55–85Hz.

You ideally want the back of a speaker placed as close to a wall as you can (but no closer than the port diameter, if rear-ported) or placed more than 3m from the walls so that the cancellation frequency is below 30Hz.

Of course few people have the opportunity to set up speakers in an ideal location, so it would not be the end of the world. But something to consider.

Lum · 2023-12-19T18:23:07.785Z

I read the hs8 manual and it stated 1,5m. Hmmm will need to try some things out

Lum · 2023-12-19T18:25:22.861Z

Thanks for your advice! I’d like to try a new speaker, the adams are great but I found the ribbon tweats to be a bit agressive for my ears

Lum · 2023-12-19T18:26:52.249Z

Hmm thanks for your advice, will take it into account!

No need to go for kh120 mk2 if my research is correct.

Kegeratorz · 2023-12-19T18:35:10.939Z

Lum:

Now, I’m lucky enough to be able to setup my complete studio in the corner of a big shed. The upstairs part it mostly used for storage so it’s basically empty 24/7 (see pictures).

Looks like a stellar place to chill and make music! Congrats!

hausland · 2023-12-19T18:49:15.483Z

I’d also go with the KH120 if budget allows or maybe with a used Klein + Hummel O300 if you want something bigger and can find a pair.

Alternatively, these Kali Audio In-8 are a good budget option:

thomann.de

Kali Audio IN-8 2nd Wave

Kali Audio IN-8 2nd Wave; Aktiver Nahfeldmonitor; 3 Weg System mit koaxialem Mittel-/Hochtöner; 8" Tieftöner; 4" Mitteltöner; 1" soft dome Hochtöner; Leistung: 140 Watt (60/40/40 Watt Tri-Amped); Frequenzbereich: 37 Hz - 25 kHz (-10 dB), 45 Hz -...

Lum · 2023-12-19T21:03:34.781Z

I could stretch to kh120s but I’m not sure if they have enough low for the room given how they have 4 inch woofers. What do you think?

hausland · 2023-12-19T23:02:13.245Z

I think for a 49m2 room they are way small to fill it out with bass etc. comes down to what you want to prioritise though. The KH120s are wonderfully precise, fast and accurate, very good separation, great stereo soundstage…it’s an amazing speaker in its price class. You’d get these for your second listed goal, to work on tracks from start to finish.

you could second them with a cheap bigger set or a PA set for when you want it loud and fun only. Or you could get the monitors and then later add a woofer.

Personally with monitors I’d opt for precision/accuracy and definition over eg a pleasant sound 10 out of 10 times. You can only mix what you can hear. And the more you can hear, the more you can decide what people should be hearing. So I’d get the best quality speaker I could afford in my price bracket (size to me would be secondary but I also don’t listen all that loudly when I record & mix).

Of course I also understand the wish to feel the music and have fun with it in a big space such as yours. that’s why I suggested the Klein + Hummel O300s used…you should be able to find a pair for around 1200-1800€ - they were the predecessors to the KH310, so quite a bit bigger and more powerful than the KH120.

Just remember, the bigger your driver, the harder it becomes to manage the sound in space…ie acoustic treatment needs to be stepped up etc. i have Dynaudio Air 15s as secondary speakers in my home studio, which is around a 26m2 room…meaning, the speakers are technically way big for the room, but I listen to them quietly or I listen to them for fun (not analytically). If I turn them up, despite heavy acoustic treatment, the room is quickly drenched in bass frequencies and it gets loud and muddy. It’s the room not the speakers

EDIT: thought I’d specify here: in fact in my listening position, when I use the Dynaudios and I turn them up, I hear hardly any bass, because the way they speakers interact with the room, the bass frequencies just happen to mostly cancel themselves out just around my listening position (my main speakers are the Munro Egg 150s and they’re set up just right for my position). However, if i take two steps away from my listening position into the room from, the bass will be so dominant that nothing else comes through. Classic example of a problematic match betwen speaker and room (ie too big)

So you’d have to consider acoustic treatment even more seriously if you want to go bigger (you should do that anyway!) and also your listening position. Judging from the photos, the table by the stairs facing the way it is facing would not be optimal for a bigger set (or in general). I’d do what @reeloy suggested and turn that table towards the bookshelf, centred to that wall and either close to the wall or 1/3 of the room away from the wall.

If you want to stay seated where you are, small speakers would make it easier to “control” them in the space.

If you know already that you will not want to treat the room much, go smaller. If you eventually want to treat the room and care for loudness, then either get a smaller analytical set and a bigger, cheaper fun set OR save up for the right size (read bigger) speakers and get one set that feels right to you.

Also, I’d always steer clear from woofers because in most home recording settings, they’d drown the room. I have the matching subwoofer to my Dynaudios, it’s been disconnected for years. But maybe that’s also just me and my relationship to bass

I’d consider putting some budget aside for a few bass traps (one in each corner) and a few broadband absorbers. Even a little can improve your listening situation a lot (and hence the performance of whatever speaker set you end up getting). Remember, you’re speakers will only ever be as good as the room will allow them to be.

You could look at Mike Senor’s book (I think it’s called Mixin Secrets for the Small Studio) for ideas on how to make the most of your room without spending a fortune or going into acribic, unnecessary detail (as in: beyond what your goals for the room and your production actual would require). it has a nice section on acoustic treatment, listening position, speaker placement etc.

Lastly I want to add that I too find Adam’s ribbon tweeters way too harsh and fatiguing…I guess different people have different sensitivities, but to me the higher frequencies are quite pronounced. Point being: whatever we recommend here, you’ll be best of trying out a few speakers you’re interested in and just see what suits you the best. You’ll have to learn the speakers, no matter which ones you end up getting

Hope some of this makes sense, it’s late here and I wrote more than I intended

Lum · 2023-12-21T09:48:28.280Z

Thanks or your extensive reply!

A lot of food for thought. The setup is easy enough to change orientation, it’s a bit less inspiring like this, which is fine(see picture). I’ll probably bring in the Genelecs first and work from there. Either add a sub that I can use with my future Neumanns or add a pair of second hand 7-8 inch speakers. Then in a few months I’ll get the kh120’s.

And I agree with what you say, my goal isn’t to fill the room as I usually make music on low volume’s. I’d just like to have the option to listen to or make/DJ music when friends come along whist having a few beers. And I think for that a sub, pair of cheaper 8 inch speakers or even my hifi tops and sub would do the trick.

A friend of mine also told me to look into Dynaudio. But I feel diverging into more options isn’t that helpful at this point. I feel confident the kh120’s are enough for me when paired with something to give a bit more vibe/lows.

Also, I found a pair of Kali’s like you suggested 5km from my house but I’m reading mixer reviews? Have you ever hear them?

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hausland · 2023-12-21T12:22:18.454Z

Lum:

Also, I found a pair of Kali’s like you suggested 5km from my house but I’m reading mixer reviews?

I have the Kali Audio LP-6s (two-way speaker, was their first product, the IN-8 are a three-way speaker and more recent). The LP-6s are obviously not comparable with something like higher grade Genelecs or the KH120s, but for the low price I paid for mine (I think 129€ per speaker new), they are absolutely unmatched. The only other low budget option that comes close are the JBL 308s Mk2, but they’re a bit more expensive.

I think for casual, loud listening, the IN-8s should beat out a lot of other options. And them being 3-way speakers at that price point is unheard of. How much is the local option asking for the used set?

Lum · 2023-12-21T12:54:18.462Z

Ah I see, so I could see them as an option between say Adam’s and Yamaha’s?

550,- for a pair. But might be able to make a deal as they are up for a while already.

hausland · 2023-12-21T13:01:04.428Z

Exactly! 616€ new for the pair, I’d shoot for 500€ or so!

salami.wav · 2023-12-21T13:12:59.914Z

Take a look at IK Multimedia iLoud MTM.

I have them and I think that for a small close-field setup space like that one they can give you something very honest and phase coherent to work with for the budget.

They are MTM design so keeping them in vertical position minimise first reflections on your desk, or if you have an asymmetric setup you can minimise first reflections from the sides by placing them horizontally (at the expense of narrowing your sweet-spot).

They have in-built DSP room calibration that works very well to correct the phase and FR of the speaker to best match your listening position.

I wouldn’t use a Sub unless I’m 100% certain that the room would respond well to it, I’ll go with headphones to check the sub informations.

Lum · 2023-12-25T06:59:13.137Z

A bit of an update! Merry christmas everyone:)

After much thought and being somewhat overwhelmed by the offerings I started considering Adam again, as i know the sound.

currently I can get my hands on the following 2nd hand deals:

adam A7v €900,-
adam A77H €1500,-

Alternatively, I’m toying with the idea of getting a decent set of headphones like the Neumann NHD30 and get something like kali 8in or yamaha hs8 whislt keeping an eye out for second hand neumann kh120 make my upgrade path more gradual in the coming month/years.

reeloy · 2023-12-25T10:33:35.293Z

…good to see, u switched perspective and give my suggested room orientation a try…
i really think, that way around, facing to that wall, leaving the staircase side free to a siderig table spot, will serve u better…

and whatever new speakeroptions u got in mind, first get the gear u already got in place and use ur existing setup this way and learn to read ur new room, which is always half the sound u hear, no matter what set of miónitors u pick/got in use in the end…

Sleepyhead · 2023-12-25T10:57:01.128Z

Cool space! Looks inspiring.

To throw in one more option since you specifically mentioned wanting something thats nice to listen too: I swear by focal alpha’s. I’ve used various monitors througout the years, including the genelec 8020’s. The focals, while sounding precise and translating well, are an absolute joy to listen to. There’s focals alpha 50’s which should fit your budget and work for a small room.

The genelecs are very nice and precise, but tire me out after a while, as did the adam’s I’ve used at a friends’ studio.

Lum · 2023-12-25T13:41:46.738Z

Thanks! will take a look at those too

hausland · 2023-12-25T13:50:15.097Z

Personally, if you’ve felt the high frequency ribbon tech was a bit harsh to your ears, I wouldn’t mess with Adam. I know a lot of people really appreciate their speakers and specifically that ribbon design, me personally i find it super harsh and fatiguing. Everyone hears differently, so I know this is personal, just mentioning this because you wrote earlier that you found the highs harsh/fatiguing. I’d say trust that.

Lum · 2023-12-25T15:08:02.653Z

well, tbh i haven’t had difficulty with them during my 8 years of a7x use. BUT! I wasn’t as aware of my body/hearing back then and I can imagine there being some better options for my ears.

After getting tinnitus/panic attack in my early 20’s. I did always tend to mix darker on the adam’s