Looking at working with a hardware sequencer again

How has no one mentioned the Synthstrom Deluge? I sold my Cirklon after getting g it and have never looked back. And it is a synth/sampler/drum machine/looper.

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Love my Squid.

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Do you play keys? MPC keyboard workstation is about to be announced

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on the iPad side of things, two great midi sequencers only are Xquence 2 and Atom 2. Atom 2 is an AUv3, so youā€™d need something like AUM or ApeMatrix to use it, itā€™s super powerful though.

Yes, we can ā€¦ but this dosnā€™t compare with Elektron sequencers and their easy access to all automation parameters. In a DAW we have to plan out, which lanes of automation we need and then ā€œdrawā€ the motion. On an Elektron sequencer we activate live-recording and as we tweek any of those parameter-buttons, without much of a ā€œplanningā€, we get it done instantly.

For everyone interested in tweaking complex automations on an electronic instrument, I would recommend to check out the Elektron-Way. Itā€™s very efficient, maybe even the most efficient way.

IMO second to this might be the use of the Q-Links of a MPC and using a prepared template (program) for a particular instrument.

I like the Akai Force as a midi sequencer. It lacks some of the sofisticated features of Elektrons, but a clip can have any length you want. Even not quantized lengths. And its very visual so i get a good overview of all that is happening in a song.

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This is the way Iā€™ve gone with Ableton. No need to find an app with no audio support, just turn audio off in preferences. I use a PCIe midi interface (RME Raydat) and the timing seems at least as good as the old Atari / Notator days. Arrangement view is faster than any hardware sequencer Iā€™ve ever used, and session view (with an appropriate controller) is more ā€œjammableā€ than many hardware seqā€™s (possibly some competition from MPC / QY700). Plus Ableton has some useful midi features (for me) which are scarce or non-existent in hardware. So, while Iā€™d prefer to work without a computer monitor, Iā€™ve got actual screen time down to a minimum.

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I know you want away from the computer but from everything you say, honestly, no hardware sequencer is going to give you all the functionality you require, Ableton is your best bet.

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The RM1X is the best of the old Yamaha Sequencers Iā€™ve used.
It is pretty similar to use to the pyramidā€¦ main issue is the constant stop start (as you canā€™t switch from active track to another and hit record without stopping the sequencer)
I mean, generally speaking the newer sequencers are just a bit slicker than the old onesā€¦ but the old ones do have some cool tricks and interesting workflows (RM1X has a midi delay where the feedback plays a descending sequence of notes for example which is basically the way a track like this can be made : Mr Fingers -Clouds)

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Have you investigated around Maschine+ ?
There are some flaws / workarounds when sequencing external hardware but itā€™s standalone and have a modern sequencer (no ā€œstepā€ limitations, almost infinite pattern size) and borrows a few things from Elektron (trig lock parameters and lock states which are quite close to the OT scenes) and Ableton (session view).

I have a Bass Station 2 and a Prophet Rev2 hooked up. With a proper template I made, itā€™s working pretty well to sequence them.

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i have both.
yeah, they are similar ideologically.
but tactile-wise, i found Pyramid light years away from RM1x, even after swithches replacement.

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I prefer the tactile switches on my RM1X to those on the Pyramidā€¦ but yeah, as soon as I got the Pyramid, the RM1X has had little use I agree

With risk of being that TE guyā€¦ let me throw OP-Z in the mix.

it has by far been my go to device for song writing.
i use it all the time for midi sequencing and recording midi data onto other devices.

hereĀ“s a typical way ive been using it together with Syntakt.

In my current set up im using a Syntakt and Nord Lead 2.
i set up Syntakt tracks 1-8 to correspond with OP-Z tracks 1-8.
So on tracks 1-4 i have drums, tracks 5-8 i have midi (to NL2)

the way OP-Z is set up is that tracks 1-4 are drum oriented and 5-8 are Bass. Lead, ARP, Chords.
so that is why i have tracks 5-8 on syntakt set up to send midi to NL2 (for less confusion)

i write my pattern on the OP-Z and set up all the syntakt channels to have 64step with 1/2 scale.
This means i can record 8 bars of midi onto each track of the syntakt. i chose not to go lower in scale on syntakt because it doesnt record the midi data accurately beyond that point.

the real gold mine of the OP-Z is that i can use the Master track to transpose all the midi data (it transposes in chordal modes and not semi tones) so i can just as easily create a B-pattern by just copying a pattern on Syntakt, removing all the midi data and then record the new transposed midi data from the OP-Z.

i can also use the performance track to alter the sequence even moreā€¦ every performance function not tied to synth sounds is transmittable via midi. (you can however set up some of the encoders to transmit on specific CCĀ“s and in that way have them transmit midi data as well)

this way of working works flawlessly on Nerdseq as well (with the midi expander for both nerdseq and OP-Z)

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Revisiting this again to hopefully gain some clarity.

Warning: Epic long post ahead.

Iā€™ve bought a DN to play with in my spare time while I figure out where Iā€™m going with my ā€œmainā€ setup. Got a couple songs I made with the DNK to finish, and I remembered how enjoyable making them was. The keyless one makes more sense for my space.

I did some soul searching and hereā€™s what I came up with: I need to focus on sound, the song creation process, and ā€œtraditionalā€ performance i.e. playing drumpads and keys. Some devices I have lend themselves to occasional live tweaks but I am certain now that I am not the groovebox-as-a-live-instrument type.

There are grooveboxes I like writing on more than others. I find myself often frustrated by Machinedrum for its limited sequencer, and the Analog Four as well, though less so, for its limited polyphony.

A ā€œrealā€ sequencer/sampler needs to be at the center, to whatever degree depending on the songā€¦

I consider MD, M:C and A4 like fancy sound modules. Iā€™m big on being able to tweak all sounds while the sequence is playing, mainly for the purpose of fine-tuning before committing to audio, but also a little bit of parameter and modulation performance. I consider those three to be strong in the drums department so I lump them together somewhat.

Then there is ND3P and DN. DN is somewhere between a sound module and a performance synth. But to me it leans more on the performance synth side, and it just happens to be able to produce songs by itself. I kind of wish I only ever got the ND3P, then Iā€™d probably have gotten another one, or the ND2 as well, and some kind of universal synth module like a Virus and thatā€™d be it, but I think Iā€™m kind of stuck with what I have for now? The thing is I want to play the ND3P live and I donā€™t like the idea of a sequencer controlling it while Iā€™m doing that so I am not sure about it as a sound module but I could sample it. It is frustrating, because it is so dynamic, and the best drum synth I own.

I have a handful of other performance synths. Some Iā€™ve used as sound modules.

Itā€™s impossible to make sense of it all. I either have to simplify or just wrap up all the unfinished songs and start doing things more one at a time instead of starting a bunch of things at once and making a mess.

I want to try writing with just good olā€™ Ableton, againā€¦ maybe try Push for more of a hardware experience?

If that doesnā€™t work, I think a Deluge might actually be the best thing.

The only thing I donā€™t know yet is how fine detail Deluge can capture in its sequencer. Is it on par with Ableton for grace notes, polyphony, and automation? Can it do very long sequences or is there a step limit? I get the sense that arrangement is its strong suit.

Moneyā€™s about to become less of an issue so I might become more of a gear collector. Itā€™s impossible to know if youā€™re really done with something, if you ever liked it. If you ever liked a piece, itā€™s likely youā€™ll want it at some point later, for a certain song or project maybe. And for most things selling them just doesnā€™t seem worthwhile. Iā€™ll just need to keep buying/trying things out until I am satisfied, trusting my gut more this time. Iā€™ve depended too much on my intellect.

MD is always a sticking point because I kind of donā€™t need it at all anymore and in fact I find it the most difficult of all to do sound design on, but I fear that letting go of it would be a mistake. So itā€™s likely to become more of a background player. Maybe doing some sample screwing here, some minimal beats there, some snappy drum sounds thereā€¦

A4 is the other black sheep that is actually sitting on the sideline for now.

NL3 is the oddest synth ever in that when I think about using it, I think itā€™s terrible and donā€™t want to, but when I actually sit down and get deep into it itā€™s kind of amazing. And performing with it is uniquely pleasant, apart from the shit keys but I got a fine MIDI controller if I want to spread out and have better control.

So Iā€™m here wondering, what all this gear is for and if maybe I have too many grooveboxes, if, after all, I donā€™t want to be a ā€œgroovebox playerā€ as my main way of making music. I know I need a performance synth, performance drums, and some way of sequencing and arranging thatā€™s comfortable and powerful. Thatā€™s like the bare minimum.

The one groovebox I could never see myself letting go of is the M:C. And maybe, oddly enough the A4. Both are unique in their abilities and couldnā€™t be replicated by anything else I own. However if I knew of any other multitimbral analog synth, preferably with more voices and as-strong live modulation features right now Iā€™d swap the A4 for that in a heartbeat. AFAIK it doesnā€™t exist.

DN seems pretty optional, I know I could just use FM8 and probably be fine. It is an excellent FM sound design tool though, canā€™t deny that. And as I already said I like making songs on it. So itā€™s a treat thatā€™ll stay no matter what.

Other gear I own. Korg X5, Drumbrute Impact, DX7, EMU ESI-2000.

I also wonder if with a Deluge a lot of this stuff would become redundant. The sound engine seems to get poopooā€™d a lot? What Iā€™ve heard seems to be pretty generic, and totally dependent on the sound designer. Like there are no red flags that I can tell. Like for example how one might not prefer the sound of the Blofeld, itā€™s like you can really tell when you hear it what itā€™s about. Deluge seems more unbiased, but Iā€™ll have to listen to some more demos. Anyway I wouldnā€™t get it for that, just the sampling and sequencing.

Do you map the OP-Zā€™s encoders to anything?

Off-hand contrarian perspective:

Embrace the limitations; stop bullying hardware to do stuff it dislikes in ways you dislikeā€¦ instead write your songs around some devicesā€™ limitations and let them nudge your creative practice. Find the edges and amplify them, shine a light on the limits and make it part of your song.

Iā€™m not trying to be anti-GAS here. Buy what you like, @Roger. You seem to go deep and get a lot out of what you have anyway, so I donā€™t think thatā€™s the problem. Iā€™m simply being provocative for conversation.

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I mean, fair, but yeah, I already am doing that, and honestly itā€™s barely doing it for me ā€¦ when I just end up using these things as sound modules half the time. Superior to plugins imo always but still just kinda tolerating the Elektron sequencer and feeling like Iā€™m swimming in options. Not because I have too much gear necessarily, but perhaps that Iā€™m always using too much at once, and not branching out to even better stuff that I could easily integrate (and I mean like, one synth maybe and a few effect pedals) after I settle on a workflow that satisfies me more than currently.

And to reiterate, I write songs on them, limitations and all, mostly on the M:C but starting to with DN and A4 too. I allow myself to feel joy :wink: Got a handful of tracks to polish/release, so all this ā€œstudio managementā€ as I think of it hasnā€™t held me back from producing, as it once did when I would not even let myself write I was so obsessed with gearā€¦

Thus I qualify that this wish to simplify/wrangle represents a hope - rather than a demand - to evolve, to move forward. I think the whole ā€œI bought all this stuff and itā€™s not changing for a whileā€ idea isnā€™t working for me, somehow. Not because the gear I got is bad in any way but more because I think I might have needed to spend time with them to get a better sense of what I really want/need? I could have probably gone simpler but it was my tendency to want to solve things that led to my slightly perplexing situation. Lesson: You canā€™t get ahead of yourself.

So I already have a plan of action, and, (as usual with my GASing - it doesnā€™t really matter how people reply though any bits of knowledge/wisdom help,) and thatā€™s to take it all apart, put stuff away, and focus on a few devices that leave me with no questions, that provoke no option paralysis. Something I wasnā€™t letting myself do, just the simple act of doing what I want, honestly.

Itā€™s a good little handful and Iā€™m not even gonna be hard on myself if out of this, the perfect piece of gear to get pops into my head and I end up moving in a new direction from before. Iā€™ll do whatever weird thing gets me the results Iā€™m after - buy a second Nord Drum, or a Deep Mind, or a 303 clone - no idea now! I thought I knew what I needed, but somethingā€™s just been off lately so Iā€™m gonna find out what that is.

Like some people have said to me, itā€™s about the artist not the gear. So I might just be learning about sound from these do-it-all devices. But they have these tradeoffs ā€¦ so paring it down to trade for more appropriate gear is possible (and I realized that I have no problem with plugins sometimes). And I want to be clear - it might be that the Elektron stuff might do a lot of things I donā€™t need, or do not as good as something else might do - I feel like I buy Elektron gear almost too much out of reflex and need to pull away. Or maybe I wonā€™t buy anything and I just gotta focus on a couple pieces. I just get kinda fed up figuring out how Iā€™m going to put a song together, would rather it be a more mindless step. So I donā€™t know if that requires more gear, more focus, or just more practice (or some combination).

I havenā€™t yet, but Iā€™m going to observe which step components and performance trig affects what encoder and have those encoders affect midi CC of choiceā€¦ havenā€™t had time to do that yet thoughā€¦

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I like the look of the Keystep Pro as a control all sequencer.

Just responding on the deluge side - it can sequence as long as you want, there is no step limit. With the 4.0 update, itā€™s become a really capable sequencer. Even if it had no sound engine or sample handling at all, it would be a contender. For midi, itā€™s as easy as picking a track, pressing midi and turning to your desired channel.

It also, from what I understand, will now record incoming MPE so if you play expressively, it will take it down. The step resolution can be increased down to (I think) 128th notes, so if youā€™re entering instead of playing, you get a lot of depth. Basically the premise with the deluge is: Just use it until you exhaust the hardware, but theyā€™re not going to stop you.

On the sound engines - yes, they get ā€œmehā€™dā€ a lot (I have not played with 4.0 much and havenā€™t played at all with the new wavetable synth) but it has a VA synth, a 2op FM synth, now wavetable, and multisampling with velocity layering. All thatā€™s awesome, but does it sound good? It can. The way I approach it when Iā€™m in deluge mode though is I write on it, build songs or deep sections and get kinda to where I want the patches, then I plug it in at the studio and take the synth track and press the ā€œmidi buttonā€ to route that to the actual patch on the device I want, hardware or software.

The main limitations youā€™ll find is thereā€™s no screen. Just a simple character read-out; there are a LOT of shortcuts for the ridiculous amount of functionality, and so, like any instrument, it requires a good deal more learning and memorizing than some other sequencers; and there isnā€™t an easy way to export, but if youā€™re sequencing midi you can easily take 16 tracks into your daw in one pass and never think about it again. But it is a very, very deep sequencer. Iā€™m always stunned it doesnā€™t come up more, and Iā€™m still kind of scratching my head at the polyend play excitement, because I really think this is the better instrument.

That said, Iā€™ve been doing less midi sequencing lately so Iā€™ve fallen into a combo of m8 + blackbox to work on improvised riffs that I build into something more (being able to drop the recorded tracks on the BB right into bitwig/ableton exactly as they were arranged is a nice feature for that workflow), but my whole studio gets routed through the deluge on its way to those other destinations, and it wonā€™t ever not be right in front of my desk. Itā€™s just got an immediacy to it thatā€™s special.

There are other folks here that are far more expert on the deluge, but itā€™s a special instrument, and really hard to beat for a midi-focused workflow out of the box.

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