Kick volume seems to decrease

rtme · 2023-02-24T08:52:54.499Z

technolover303:

I tried with another kick sample (and same hats) or with the same kick (and other hats (from the same pack)) and the result was the same.

Try to microtime the hihats just a bit before or after the step. Then you might rule out phase issues of the combination of samples used.

Did you try to recreate the same thing in a DAW to check if this gives the same result?

technolover303 · 2023-02-24T09:03:23.241Z

not yet but that was an idea I had too. gonna check in Ableton. if it happens too, then it’s a good news for my Digitakt

Lauli · 2023-02-24T10:10:44.316Z

So… let’s assume there is in fact some change to the audio when the hats come in. If you take the part with only the kick drum, move it over to the part with the hats so that the kick drums line up precisely, then invert one track, then the result should be the some audio with just the hats AND some leftover artefacts of the change in the kickdrum.

Sort of like:
kick + hat - kick = hat
"modified" kick + hat - kick = hat + "modification"

Here’s some pictures of what I did:

Bildschirmfoto 2023-02-24 um 10.59.501910×616 269 KB

Bildschirmfoto 2023-02-24 um 11.00.061904×616 205 KB

And here you can hear the resulting audio:

As you can hear, there is absolutely nothing indicating any change in the kick drum sound. I think someone already mentioned it, it could be just some masking psychoacoustics. You could try just removing or lowering the volume of the hat on the step of the kick, see if that does anything.

technolover303 · 2023-02-24T10:14:36.176Z

Wow that’s a real deep analysis, thank you !

Did you listen to it loudly and did you notive that “behaviour” (which as you mention it sounds more like some accoustic hallucination?)

Lauli · 2023-02-24T10:19:05.199Z

Haha yeah I turned up my headphones quite a bit
The only thing I perceived is that the initial klick/knock at the very start of the kick gets sort of covered up by the hat. Didn’t really hear any change in the bass or overall loudness. The kick just seems less sharp (?) to me once the hats come in.

edit: this could be it? Auditory masking - Wikipedia

technolover303 · 2023-02-24T10:29:45.352Z

Lauli:

Haha yeah I turned up my headphones quite a bit
The only thing I perceived is that the initial klick/knock at the very start of the kick gets sort of covered up by the hat. Didn’t really hear any change in the bass or overall loudness. The kick just seems less sharp (?) to me once the hats come in.

edit: this could be it? Auditory masking - Wikipedia

it’s an interesting read, gonna check it completly later today. But it could be this, yes !

Does it vary from person to person ? It’s weird some people hear it and some seem to don’t (or maybe that’s not loud enough)

(Looks like you don’t hear this as I do (or some others seem to do too) - for me I really hear a change in the loudness of the kick)

Lauli · 2023-02-24T10:37:54.473Z

Hmm yeah not sure what else could be the root of this. Do you notice that with any other instruments coming in over the kick too? You mentioned Ableton, did you ever notice anything like that there too?
I’ll allow myself the snarky remark – but you better get used to this phenomenon, your tracks are gonna have way more isntruments than just kick and hat anyways.

technolover303 · 2023-02-24T10:44:49.871Z

Never noticed a similar thing on my other machines (Syntakt, A4, MPC, …) and never experienced it on Ableton neither (I produce/release techno for 15 years and never experienced (or at least noticed) this)

I was starting a track on the Digitakt (first time I put my hands on it as I just received it) and started by putting a kick, a sub bass (based on the kick) and then some hats and noticed it… I hate when stuff happens without any explaination (and I was a bit affraid that this could also occur in a bigger sound system when my tracks got released (and hopefuly played )

Dr.K · 2023-02-24T11:44:36.737Z

So for the ultimate test you could use the same samples with the same pattern on your MPC or whatever. Bring it up to the same volume and listen how it sounds. Then you’ll really know if the Digitakt is doing something different to the sound.

rtme · 2023-02-24T11:50:14.184Z

technolover303:

it’s only audible when the master volume is really loud on my headphones

Do you have your headphones directly connected to your Digitakt? In which position is your master volume knob, 12:00, 15:00? What brand/type headphones do you use?

technolover303 · 2023-02-24T11:55:08.410Z

Yes ! 12h with a Sennheiser hd25ii

Dr.K · 2023-02-24T12:05:05.031Z

So you only hear the volume drop with headphones? What about your speakers? You need to check it on speakers too because listening on headphones is not a natural listening experience. For example checking the levels of different tracks in your mix is way easier on speakers.

And as several people have noticed here there is no level drop in your example. You may percieve it like that but it’s only on your setup or your personal listening experience.
If you listen to it on speakers you feel the weight of the kick drum in the room and when the hihats come in the kick stays exactly the same.

sezare56 · 2023-02-24T12:16:44.843Z

technolover303:

12h with a Sennheiser hd25ii

12 hours with an HD25 must be painfull ! I have 2 of them. Seems they lost bass. I could compare with a newer one.

They seem very medium now I have a DT990 PRO.

I listened to your recording with speakers, I also think it is a psychoaccoustic thing.

Dr.K:

You need to check it on speakers too because listening on headphones is not a natural listening experience.

Yeah both. I prefer to check with headphones though, I’m more used too.

Schnork · 2023-02-24T13:05:04.126Z

shigginpit:

in this thread schnork is the mother teresa of kicks and hats

Yes, I’m all about doing the small things with love.

@Lauli
Great idea doing a phase cancellation test. Didn’t think about that. That clears everything up.

@technolover303
In case you’re not aware what the implications are; if the phase cancellation test comes out silent - there is no difference. There is nothing happening, but of course that does not mean it’s not possible that it can’t sound like that to you and others. Masking is a powerful thing and usually we spent quite some time to tackle masking issues when mixing.

technolover303 · 2023-02-24T13:08:04.313Z

sezare56:

technolover303:

12h with a Sennheiser hd25ii

12 hours with an HD25 must be painfull ! I have 2 of them. Seems they lost bass. I could compare with a newer one.

They seem very medium now I have a DT990 PRO.

I listened to your recording with speakers, I also think it is a psychoaccoustic thing.

after reading it again, that seemed a bit weird, yes

Master level at 12:00 and only a few minutes with the HD25 was enough

sezare56:

Dr.K:

You need to check it on speakers too because listening on headphones is not a natural listening experience.

Yeah both. I prefer to check with headphones though, I’m more used too.

As I have no studio yet (still under construction), I am using only the headphones for now. Most of the time, even if I would rather work with speakers for production purposes, I always end up doing the final mixdown with my headphones anyway.

technolover303 · 2023-02-24T13:13:12.070Z

Dr.K:

So you only hear the volume drop with headphones? What about your speakers? You need to check it on speakers too because listening on headphones is not a natural listening experience. For example checking the levels of different tracks in your mix is way easier on speakers.

And as several people have noticed here there is no level drop in your example. You may percieve it like that but it’s only on your setup or your personal listening experience.
If you listen to it on speakers you feel the weight of the kick drum in the room and when the hihats come in the kick stays exactly the same.

same answer than to @sezare56 :

As I have no studio yet (still under construction), I am using only the headphones for now. Most of the time, even if I would rather work with speakers for production purposes, I always end up doing the final mixdown with my headphones anyway.

I’ve worked with the same headphones for almost 10 years and never experienced that - that’s what make me wondering what was happening.

I trust you guys (and your great analyzis) and also believe it’s pretty surely some kind of audio hallucination. But I wouldn’t swear it’s because of the headphones or my “unique” listening experience as it seemed to happen to a few other guys in this thread too.

technolover303 · 2023-02-24T13:14:55.879Z

btw, I am always amazed at how people are kindly to help and spend time on this forum to help people.

so thank you to anyone involved

I’ll do some more tests on Ableton in a few minutes and let you know

Schnork · 2023-02-24T13:24:54.878Z

I’d recommend you do the phase cancellation test yourself. You can follow @Lauli instrunctions and if you’re interested read a bit about it. It’s a common test to check for differences in audio. It would reveal the smallest things (small differences often sounds like crackling noises), but silence definitely means there is no diffference and you can simply slap a spectrum analyser on the track and check if you see anything.

Masking is a different topic, it takes some practise to be able to spot it, but you actually were able to spot it, you just couldn’t identify it as masking.

The Digitakt has a slight high shelf eq boost on the master afaik, makes it sound a bit more “hifi” compared to playing the same pattern plain, this might bring out that region where the kicks transient and the hats clash more and might exaggerate masking in that region. Maybe that’s the reason why you started to notice it on the Digitakt…?

technolover303 · 2023-02-24T13:53:50.333Z

Would love to find some time to make the phase cancellation test - btw I didn’t know this technique and it looks it could be interesting in other purposes too !

I just made the test on Ableton with the same samples in a Simpler and guess what I think I noticed it (even if it was less audible than on the Digitakt)… So I tried it again on the Digitakt and now it looks like I hear it less there too. That makes me (even more) crazy

Imo that’s one more proof it was something not “tangible” …

And that’s a bit reassuring tbh

Schnork · 2023-02-24T14:38:04.375Z

technolover303:

Would love to find some time to make the phase cancellation test - btw I didn’t know this technique and it looks it could be interesting in other purposes too !

Yeah, absolutely! If you wanted to check if or how something changes a sound - for example if a sampler or effect does something to the sound even with “neutral” settings, you could just take the original sound and a recording through the sampler or effect, place them on two different tracks so that they play at the same time and invert the phase on one of them. You´ll have to play them at the same level, that might require some tweaking, but when you get the level right, it would cancel everything that is same as in the original, leaving only the differences.

This works, because when the phase is flipped on one track, everyhing that is exactly the same goes in the opposite direction. Like in this picture, everything that goes up, goes down in the inverted version and if you think about how a speaker cone works, you can imagine that if the speaker cone wanted to move in one direction and in the opposite direction at the same time - it would not move at all resulting in silence at that moment.

phase_cancel500×277 39.1 KB

I also found this depiction of masking. The quiter signal in the same frequency range gets masked (overpowered) by the louder signal. When you now take away that signal, your ears will have to re-adjust to what´s happening.

Auditoryfiltermaskersignal1.svg315×240 3.68 KB

technolover303:

I just made the test on Ableton with the same samples in a Simpler and guess what I think I noticed it (even if it was less audible than on the Digitakt)… So I tried it again on the Digitakt and now it looks like I hear it less there too. That makes me (even more) crazy

Haha, psychoacoustic phenomena can certainly feel pretty crazy^^