ITB mixing. But... if you could have 1-2 pieces of nice hardware for mix/master?

The Lounge General Discussion
#1

EDIT - Looking back on things a few days later, I probably should have just boiled my original post down to something more to the point:

Assuming you have basics taken care of like monitoring and room treatment, is there any hardware you think that would be worth the money to put on your stereo master buss? 1-2 pieces, something in the $2-4k range.

…In the spirit of the following passage from a Sound on Sound article by Matt Houghton - Hardware in the Software Studio. Great article by the way!

/ end edit

I know there are probably a lot of musicians out there like me. You’ve got a few hardware instruments. You record into Ableton Live. You have some decent plugins on the master buss. You do the best you can with a limited budget. You’re just putting songs out on Soundcloud/Bandcamp. You’re not putting anything out on vinyl. No label is paying for mastering. So, you’re not convinced yet that spending $$$$ on a bunch of hardware processing will be worth it, especially as an amateur electronic musician with no money coming in from music.

You read countless mixing articles and tutorials. You get some decent sounding tunes. But you still feel as if something is missing.

Fwiw, my master buss generally looks like:

Ableton EQ > Glue > U-he Satin > Fabfilter Pro-L

My style of music is Dub Techno, or maybe some weird hybrid of House & Dub Techno. I admire Rhythm & Sound, Fluxion, Deepchord, Vladislav Delay, etc. A lot of more famous producers in Dub Techno rely heavily on hardware. But then again, a lot of them acquired it back when it was cheap and good plugins weren’t available. I guess I am picturing their studios filled with large analog mix desks, reel-to-reel tape, compressors, pultec-style eq, etc.

Am I simply fetishizing hardware? Maybe. But if this is all just for fun, maybe that’s not a terrible thing if you can recognize that. I tend to find physical gear more fun than software and I like well-designed physical interfaces.

Again, this not solely a personal request for recommendations. I’d love to hear:

Are there any bits of kit that you feel would help your tunes for a decent amount of money? Hypothetically, let’s say you just found $4k. What would you get that you truly feel would improve the mixing/mastering stage of your songs? Nothing miraculous, but perhaps some more polish, sheen, low-end weight, and 3D sound that you feel you might not be reaching with plugins alone.

  1. What things you are thinking of for your own setup?
  2. Why these particular items?

I’ll list some things we are putting on our collective wish list. The following companies, generally speaking, seem to have some suitable, and somewhat affordable (not cheap), comps and eq’s for use on the master buss.

Okay, here’s a fun way to put together a 500 Series wish list, check prices, etc. I knew they did eurorack but didn’t know they did 500 series.

modulargrid.net

FYI, if you are browsing via brand name, the “other/unknown” category has a ton of manufacturers in it.

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What's on Your Master Bus (in the Studio)?
#2

Well my master buss looks similar, i just use pro Q instead of the Abelton build in EQ. I would recommmend you read “mixing secrets” from mike senior before you shell out money.

There are videos online showing pre and post mastering - and mostly the pre mix is already on a professional level.

Probably you can ask friends to mix your material with more neutral ears ? Or try out a real mastering engineer, shell out 100 -200 € /$ instead of several thousands - just to see what the pre /post is sounding like ?

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#3

an apollo 8 quad with the analog heat would take you really far. 8 channels of realtime dsp processing with UAD plugs is pretty good. That paired with a 500 series lunchbox with a nice stereo eq and comp would do you wonders. You can then process stems individually and also deal with master bus processing using the UAD virtual mixer or your DAW. This setup would run you closer to 5 grand but I think you can get excellent results with this hybrid approach.

#5

Also not to forget - room treatment - better monitor boxes. You haven’t said anything about your listening environment. Maybe some Focal /Genelec or an additional sub helps ? You cant refine your mix if you dont hear what is going on.
The fab filter Pro Q, can also be useful to “see” what your mix looks like - you can also use it to do EQ profiles from other tracks, and use those as reference profiles for your own mix. Always mix with reference tracks.
Its also a good idea to check other mixes waveforms to see what they have done.

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#6

This.

I’m actually thinking of giving Sonarworks speaker calibration software/measurement mic combo a shot. I’ve lost the war with the missus about hanging treatment in our extra bedroom which she is so gracious to have given me as my studio (well, and her shoe closet).

It came highly recommend from an aquintance who makes a living as an audio engineer and has worked with internationally touring acts. Said it really helped him clean up some low mid problems he was having in his home studio monitoring.

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#7

The first thing you would need if you wish to process OTB is top quality converters, both D/A and A/D, particularly if you are talking master bus.
If you don’t have top converters to start with you are better off staying ITB.
Plugins are so good now I personally don’t bother these days.

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#8

OP Mentioned U-he Satin…that is all over my mixes these days…thinking of picking up FabFilter Saturn at some point and I think I’ll be sorted for color.

Using U-he Presswerk almost exclusively for compression. I simply don’t see the need for hardware processing in a home studio for most people these days. Agreed.

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#9

I use Satin and Saturn here pretty often too. Among other plugs. If I had £4k to spend on outboard I’d prob look at something from Chandler. Love the 60/70s mojo that their units seem to ooze.

#10

You’ve shown her these?

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#11

+1 on Mixing Secrets

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#12

:joy::joy: my studio shares the same space with my wifes office (fortunately the room is quite big and she works in the creative space).

she was a little surprised to find my new Eurorack modular :joy::joy::joy: “wtf is this?”
“Decoration my love… look at all the pretty wires”

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#13

I would not convinced too. But after it’s what is your goal at the end. Mastering fee for one track is not that expensive so maybe you can pay for your favorite track to be mastered sometimes… and collect them. When you have 3 or 4 you send it to your favorite label and see what’s happening. If no reply, then release it yourself.
Nowadays all can existing with DIY… If you really want to. Vinyls small amount is pressed by few company, then you can try to reach those “dj names” and offered him one here and there, and see what’s happening … you maybe surprised how things can go FAST.

Don’t TRY to Master things yourself because there’s too much “Factors” to handle (experience, hears, room treatment, high end audio etc…)

That’s just my experience. But if you offered you software and hardware for your self pleasure. I would not spend anymore money. I just offering me my favorited tracks mastered by a PRO. That’s it.

Also i forget to mention that’s DEAL you can passed with Sound Engineer, based on royalty :wink: take informations on how music business work, actually there’s not only technical aspects :slight_smile:

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#14

Been thinking the exact same thing as OP recently.
Great answers already. Room treatment and monitors, hybrid setups, all these things depend on the goals of the producer. I looked into a masterbus compressor and found an article online by Attack Mag. https://www.attackmagazine.com/reviews/the-best/top-20-best-hardware-compressors-ever-made/3/
The compressor from Smart Research on the list looks impressive. I’ve been having fun experimenting and found various results and sound colouration along the way.

You say > it feels like something is missing. I hear you on that one. I think the answer doesn’t lie with a magical piece of hardware: it is experimentation.
Experimentation with different pieces of hardware; buy it, trade it, until you find something that fits. It’s not possible to get an answer overnight but the important thing is to stick at it and when you look back in a said period of time you’ll be where you want to be with a big smile across your kisser!

I made various tunes over the past year and each has a different colour. That was mainly due to the choices I made during editing using various speaker boxes and headphones. I’m amatuear at best but I feel like I’m getting to know my gear. I think that is very important.

A massive part of the decision comes down to your final goal. If you want to perform live then some expensive master processors aren’t going to be feasible, at the start anyway. If you are going to set up a studio and produce for artists in the future then that will change your decision. Maybe your goal is to get releases on vinyl?

Mumdance made Twists and Turns completely out the box. It has a unique sound. It sounds completely different from a Madlib tune that (I can’t remember which record/lp) was made in a hotel room with a sampler and a little boom box. My point is that even if it isn’t technically wonderful it has its own ju ne sais quoi. I hope you get to find yours! :smiley:

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#15

I have considered to get some outboard gear too. Just to get after the digital processing the “right” analogue feeling. But I have no experience or idea, of how much analogue warmth can be delivered by high quality plug-ins and what is possible with decent outboard electronics only and what I should invest for gear, which would make sense in my studio work.

Up to now I am using Ozone as stand alone app and I am playing around with my stereo tracks to find out, what I could make from my mixes. But at the end of the day it always was a good idea, to give the tracks to a friend at least, because others have always listened more critical - I was not only used to - I was so familiar with my tracks that I just didn’t recognise this or that issue :wink:

Maybe equipment like the Analog Heat or an analogue stereo channel mastering strip with EQ, glueing compressor and amplifier would just fit the bill to get a great sound in the studio (pseudo-mastering I would call this … and yes room-treatment, monitors …). I am curious, if somebody has some advice - other than “let it be” :wink:

Edit: A couple of text books or blogs, which try to explain mastering, point out that if the sound of a track is missing something, it very often is down to the mix. They often state that mastering should be the balancing of tracks for an album or to do the last fine tuning of the sound, but is never supposed to correct a mix.

#16

Thanks for the responses everyone. I appreciate you taking the time to reply. I’ll try to clarify a bit here and then respond to some things.

My “studio” is our spare bedroom with my wife’s closet and chest of drawers. So it’s a studio / dressing room. Seems this is a common predicament. :grinning: It’s a rental and we are moving sometime soon (house shopping) so I can’t put up room treatment or that’s definitely one of the first things I would do.

When I get settled in a house, there will be some basics I take care of like room treatment, better monitoring, better soundcard. I guess I didn’t write about those because in my mind they are a given. I should have stated that to save time, I apologize.

I also realize knowledge and experience is better than gear. I totally get it. It’s helpful to remind everyone of these basics. I’m not trying to downplay this advice at all.

But, I guess I was wanting to know more of a wish list from you guys. Maybe I should have cut out the more personal background info and just stated that more clearly. This is mainly meant to be a fun hypothetical thread that assumes we have the basic foundations laid of solid listening environments, a decent amount of knowledge, and intermediate-level technical mixing skills. Let’s take it from there maybe.

With a good intermediate-level foundation laid, let’s say we want to buy a couple pieces of gear for our growing home studio. Free and cheap software might be able to do the job just as well, but maybe we think physical gear is more fun and nice to look at. :slight_smile:

Are there any bits of kit that you feel would help your tunes for a decent amount of money? Hypothetically, let’s say you just found $4k. What would you get that you truly feel would improve the mixing/mastering stage of your songs? Nothing miraculous, but perhaps some more polish, sheen, low-end weight, and 3D sound that you feel you might not be reaching with plugins alone.

  • What things you are thinking of for your own setup?
  • Why these particular items?
  • Collective wish-list items moved to original post for easier long-term viewing and maintenance.

Now, having said all that above, I am also interested in learning about what people want, why they want it, what they feel it would help in their productions, and if it would be worth the money versus free and cheap plugins. I think this is an angle worth exploring as well.

I have read a few articles and threads out there from pros saying they basically mix/master in the box these days, but keep a few pieces of $$$ hardware around to impress clients and potential clients. So we know it’s all good. They are just tools. I’m not interested in arguing software vs hardware.

I’m interested in the psychology of buying somewhat expensive gear, especially from a non-professional standpoint. Why do some amateurs tend to fetishize this gear? (I am guilty of this myself sometimes, not judging!)

  • Is it the physicality of the object?
  • Hero worship (Rhythm & Sound use this, so I must also)?
  • Consumerism? The effects of marketing and advertising on our lizard brains?
  • Desire of limitations (interface limitations and time limitations) - easier to choose our 1 simple and classic/proven hardware EQ rather than sort through endless plugin options and complicated interfaces? An interface we know well, a sound character we know well, can produce quick reliable results.
  • Is there an actual item we know will work well, i.e. used by a trusted friend/producer/engineer? Or do we simply repeat things we have gleaned from other threads over the years until they become fact?
  • Loudness. Things that are louder tend to seem better to our ears. On a lot of gear demos are they simply making things louder? Because there are a lot of (free or cheap) ways to make something louder. But does it truly make it sound better while staying at a comparable volume and still retaining headroom?

But maybe that is a separate topic in and of itself. But these are certainly some of the questions I ask myself when I find myself GAS’ing and thinking I “need” that extra 10-15% of mojo that some nice hardware might give me.

#17

I think that’s what most of us are looking for… in a nutshell.

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#18

I can show 'em to her for sure. Her concern was not so much aesthetics as how the stuff gets hung up and how it would be taking it all down and fixing it if/when we move (probably not in the near future considering we both just took a salary hit to keep our jobs).

The pricing doesn’t seem out of this world, but I bet shipping would kill me getting it to the US. worth a shot!

@Bwax

IF I had 4k I might spend the money one something hardware to run buses and the master into. Probably a Mammoth Audio Wolly Mammoth. Its basically a bad ass flavor box, though at the moment the site seems to be down. If not that perhaps something from Thermonic Culture or a pair of Tone Beasts from Warm Audio. If I had 4k to spend free and clear I’d jump right at something super high end just to see if the hype is true.

I’d go for something like this because when most people talk about mojo/warmth/something missing I think what they are missing is the pleasing harmonic distortion that happens in a pre-digital recording studio as the signal passes through all the little bits and bobs.

It is also why I think a lot of armature all ITB tracks end up sounding a bit flat and sterile–that and I feel like when we work all in the box the absence of a real noise floor tends to make things too clean. But maybe its only us older folks who grew up listening to vinyl, cassettes etc that notice this. Not that I’m getting any noise I have to fix through my MOTU 828, but something about having some real recording adds “that something” to my tunes to my ear.

As for your list my thoughts are:
UAD–personally I’m done investing in proprietary stuff like this. I know a couple guys that got screwed over by UAD updates and have old hardware/software they can no longer use.

Analog Heat: If I had the money I’d certainly give this a shot giving Overbridge. When you’ve got a lot of DSP dedicated OTB to process audio I think there is something extra you get. Just as an example, I really love the sound of the El Capistan pedal even though I’ve got tons of software that gets “close enough”.

500 Series Lunchbox could be nice, but those units tend to be way more expensive than their rack/desktop size counter parts.

I don’t have an opinion on a lot of that other stuff b/c it is out of my experience. The Sonarworks I’ve already made a comment on ;p

As for AD/DA conversion. I’d look into MOTU. Basically can’t go wrong and the price won’t kill you. I have an older 828 that I got for ~300USD and its miles ahead of anything I could buy for that price new.

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#19

I’d love to try some chandler units first hand. The old Abbey Road plugins with the limiter are pretty great on vocals and drums for ITB, really old but I still use em sometimes. Keep meaning to try the newer waves versions etc. Watched a video of someone with the 8 channel Chandler rack thing and a Tascam 388. Killer drum sound and you could tell if you abused the pre’s you’d find some really nice sounds there too. Way expensive though :frowning:

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#20

GIK Acoustics is a US company, so shipping shouldn’t be a problem. Did I give you a link to the UK site? sorry about that.

And yeah, this must sound really boring to you, but if I had spare 4k to blow on improving my sound, I’d use it to:

  1. Locate and rent the most acoustically ideal project studio room I could find (with an acceptable distance from my apt and a sane monthly rent)

  2. Treat the fvck out of that room with acoustic products such as bass traps, absorbers and diffusors, making measurements as I go as to not treat the room in a redundant or wrong way

  3. Get a pair of Focal twin be monitors (just my preference)

Again, YMMV. But for me, I’ve been GASing over all kinds of gear over the past decade, and am ultimately coming to the conclusion that room acoustics is where it’s at for me. I already have just about everything I could ever need on the gear dept, rest is just up to my operational skills (and being able to hear what I am doing as accurately as possible)

People often say things like “properly treated room need not even be mentioned, obviously” yet I doubt many people actually have ruler-flat rooms with good lowend and transient response. It’s too boring and unsexy compared to invest to that stuff compared to, say, a chandler zener limiter or something like that.

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#21

You did link the UK one : ) Good to know they are in the US, but be much more affordable than I thought.