Is this live mixdown setup overkill?

RhythmDroid · 2023-01-06T19:25:02.617Z

Objective: Without a laptop, allow for typical improvisational interaction with hardware sequencers and temperamental analog synths, with dancefloor-oriented, DJ-style mixing/effecting of separate audio elements WHILE MAINTAINING a high-quality professionally mixed and mastered feel to each song - with as few A/D/A conversions and as little latency as possible.

Solution:
• All hardware audio devices going into an RME Fireface UCX (+ additional 8 inputs via an ADAT based multichannel ADC if needed)
• The RME performs mixdown of inputs. The hardware sources, especially wild analog elements are tamed by EQ and compression. Songs are mixed in studio and all mixer, dynamics, EQ settings are saved as scenes.
• Mixdown in RME is done into 4 stereo groups and sent out as 8 channels via the RME’s ADAT port.
• ADAT is converted to 4 SPDIF plugs, which go into the digital inputs of a Pioneer DJ mixer - no DA-AD conversion or latency added.
This allows a straightforward, clean path of controlled, well balanced, compressed and EQd elements into a DJ mixer for more interactive control, looping, effecting, etc.

• Finally, Pioneer DJ mixer digital out goes into digital in TC Electronics Finalizer 96k for multiband compression and glueing. Analog or digital out from Finalizer to house soundsystem.

Insane? Should I just become 2 different artists instead of trying to fuse my inner Baseck with my inner Laurent Garnier? HELP

Dymaxion · 2023-01-06T19:35:32.719Z

Having gone a ways down this rabbithole, it’s worth noting that in standalone mode, you only get mutes, pans, and faders via midi control, plus the ability to load six presets. You do get midi VU meter data out, if you have a way to display it, but no live EQ, compressor, reverb, or delay changes, no solos, etc. If you can live with that, it may work?

If you want the ability to EQ etc live, an A&H Qu-SB or Qu-Pac may be a better bet; they’re fully midi-controllable, albeit with a Bome Box doing some translation in most contexts. This won’t let you eliminate a second AD conversion step, but if you can hear the difference between single and double AD conversion in a nightclub, you’ve got golden ears.

RhythmDroid · 2023-01-06T19:45:08.310Z

Dude. EXTREMELY helpful. Thank you for helping me not get bested by my perfectionist demons! --and for catching those bottlenecks with the RME!!

Dymaxion · 2023-01-07T00:16:36.869Z

I’m in the middle of this dance myself — current version is a bluebox with one stereo out into an RNC, sidechained off the kick on one mono out, and the other (main) stereo out, the RNC out, and the other mono out (copy of the kick) into a Rolls mx28, through a kp3+ for looping and fuckery, a vermona action filter for more fuckery, and then into a Boum and a Mod Duo X for final polishing (with the latter also acting as a stereo recorder to capture everything post bluebox). Still waiting for the RNC, so we’ll see how it comes together.

obscurerobot · 2023-01-07T00:51:23.199Z

What about a Korg MW series mixer instead of the RME + ADCs + ADAT->S/PDF?

Cost should be similar or a little bit lower for the Korg, will take up more space but you have much more control over every channel. And you still have 8 analog outs to the mixer.

Alternately, a MOTU 828mk2. They are cheap but good. Probably not as good as an M2/4/6, but no one will notice live. The low price is because MOTU no longer provides drivers. The 828 series are also digital mixers. The Mk2 is fully programmable from the front panel, and the UI doesn’t require referencing the manual. Used prices should be under $200, so If you end up getting an RME or a MW, you can use the 828 as an S/PDIF / ADAT interface.

Microtribe · 2023-01-07T01:55:59.612Z

RhythmDroid:

Insane?

Yes.

For live shows, literally no one on the dancefloor cares about your set up. If your tunes are good, no one cares about compressors, converters and other such gear. Except those two neck beard chin scratchers up the back, and theyre knobs anyway.

maymind_trax · 2023-01-07T02:31:22.527Z

I would also ask, why no laptop? The M1s are amazing machines and paired with any groovebox / Elektron / whatever, you can literally do anything sound wise.

I just think we are past delineating laptop or no laptop on stage. It’s possible to use it as a creative tool or it’s possible to use it like a dummy.

Also think about setup / tear down time. At actual shows, as I’m sure you know, you get very little setup time and it’s often in the dark. You want it to be as painless and quick as possible. I once had to set my stuff up in almost pitch darkness out in the desert and was super glad I kept it simple.

Or just keep it raw and don’t worry about the sound being comparable to other things. Personally as soon as I added Ableton Live into my live setup, everything else became much more fun.

My two (or three) cents. Good luck bud!

Dr.K · 2023-01-07T02:38:28.278Z

I would ask myself first if this setup is fun to use for a liveshow. If yes then go for it. Otherwise i’d use something else even if the sound isn’t perfect.
For me it would be too much to set up and worry about.

Joe_b · 2023-01-07T21:34:59.562Z

RhythmDroid:

• ADAT is converted to 4 SPDIF plugs, which go into the digital inputs of a Pioneer DJ mixer - no DA-AD conversion or latency added.

ADAT is a notoriously unreliable format and I would not use it live, certainly not with SPDIF adaptors.

I get the no-laptop idea but only up to a point. If your set-up becomes super convoluted, then maybe the cost-benefit (not just financial) should tilt in favor of using one.

I also get the keep-it-simple argument, but not as an absolute. If you can have everything racked up and then plug into the house with one power cable and 2 XLR’s, then why not indulge yourself with your dream workflow? (assuming you are cool with the transport and lifting)

I second @Dymaxion with rack mixer idea; Q-Pack or Yamaha TF-Rack which has more modest I/O but also costs a bit less and fits in a 2U rack rather than 4U for the A&H.

RhythmDroid · 2023-01-11T23:49:22.097Z

Dr.K:

I would ask myself first if this setup is fun to use for a liveshow.

That’s actually the question right there. Is it even FUN anymore when trying so hard to cover all extremes; pro-level recallable mixdown, low latency, and super flexible jamming.

RhythmDroid · 2023-01-11T23:58:31.056Z

maymind_trax:

I just think we are past delineating laptop or no laptop on stage.

.
.
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Personally as soon as I added Ableton Live into my live setup, everything else became much more fun.

Those are some meaningful insights right there, man–a great testimonial. I mean, once this reaches the point of not being fun - then what’s the point!? Am I indulging in self-defeating, perfectionistic, obsessive behavior by insisting that I need “full control” of every element.

I think 2023 is the time to jettison some self-sabotaging behavior patterns.

RhythmDroid · 2023-01-12T00:07:22.460Z

maymind_trax:

The M1s are amazing machines and paired with any groovebox / Elektron / whatever, you can literally do anything sound wise.

So, going out this limb hypothetically…I’ve already got an old but steady RME to provide for 8 analog ins/outs - how much could I be doing on, say, an M1 Macbook Air running Live while still keeping latency super snappy?
Like, 4 stereo tracks of stems and a multitrack mix of my analog/hardware with dynamics, EQ, and multiband comp + graphic EQ on the master out?

Tikoda · 2023-01-12T07:40:24.667Z

So snappy. You can do a lot before you get over 10ms latency including a mastering chain of sorts, lots of FX etc. being able to set up your FX/EQs with clips is so easy, not to mention sending PGM changes to synths perfectly in time.

You don’t reaaaally need graphical EQ unless you’re using live microphone inputs and even then that really is the sound engineer’s job? And then you need one for your monitor and one for FOH as well to ring out properly…. Simplify more!

ghostbuddy · 2023-01-12T07:44:17.732Z

If you play a lot of shows your equipment will get drinks spilled over them and generally just banged up. I’d go for the most cost effective, durable, simple setup possible. Bare minimum of what you need to play your set basically. Definitely don’t take your expensive and complex studio equipment with you unless you can afford to replace it after someone steals your gear or it falls down a flight of stairs.

Dymaxion · 2023-01-12T07:59:42.133Z

When attached to the Mac, the RME could already do the EQ, basic dynamics, and the mixdown before you even hit software, under external midi control, if you wanted it to. So you’d really just be looking at one loop in for your end of chain. Because the entire mix will be subject to the same latency, you’ve got more leeway there.

RhythmDroid · 2023-01-12T16:51:33.057Z

All y’all have been so SO helpful putting me back on the right track. A creative mind can wreak havoc if unleashed not in the pasture of art creation, but in the abstract field of “setup design”. Just a little shepherding through the candy shop of endless setup possibilities is all I need sometimes.

Ah yes! So the RME can still be the i/o for a laptop, and in that faculty, it CAN handle the EQ/dynamics/levels. Splendid! Thanks @Dymaxion

So the big question is: Is it time to sell my Behringer X32 Rack Digital Mixer to fund a Macbook Air? Yikes. 25 years of live shows - only 4 with a computer. I’m excited but still kind of suspicious heheheh.

RhythmDroid · 2023-01-13T20:10:20.588Z

Dymaxion:

When attached to the Mac, the RME could already do the EQ, basic dynamics, and the mixdown before you even hit software,

Question, can either one of the RMEs (UCX / UCX II) run the EQ and dynamics if the host is JUST an ios device? I already have a fairly powerful iPad. Does connecting to that unlock the TotalMix extended functionality?

EDIT: I think I found the answer. If you run a Fireface UCX in Class Compliant mode, you can connect directly to iPad and run TotalMix FX for ios. This will give you access to EQ and dynamics…but not reverb and delay – which is fine for me cause I would handle those externally anyway.

maymind_trax · 2023-01-13T20:50:42.584Z

Yes it is time!!! Move forward and upwards!!

Crudeliar · 2023-01-13T20:54:38.650Z

I no longer take my gear to a club: that era is over.
Do this: bring a laptop and some exotic midi controllers, like this one:

I assure you that your gig will be much more successful while your precious gear will remain safe in the studio

reeloy · 2023-01-13T20:55:04.825Z

…if ur a one man show on at least half frequent bases, all ur actual mindset is overkill…

forget about all computer or even standalone audio interface solutions…
way too complex to set up again and again, way too many loose ends where u or ur setup could fail u… way too fragile, way too much sound or at least line check effords u have to ask for upfront…

if u come from a computer background of any kind, best u can do is to get an ot, run decent exported final stems within an upfront well thought through prepared project, do some scene trickery games in realtime, have one little dirty synth for further tweaking and twiddeling fun on top of that, enjoy the moment, enjoy the stressfree setting up, feel relaxed and therefor more performative because u run a rocksolid little never lets u down setup that fits every stage solution, that u can really control but still have heaps of headroom to improvise the hell out of it without ever struggeling for loosing focus on what to do next in realtime…

99% of the audience have no clue what u do…all they can tell is, if u rock or not…
and way too many live acts just don’t rock, since they’re all way too realtime stressed out to get it right, instead of really serving smooth and well to wipe out a floor…

they don’t care how many knobs u actually really twiddle…they only care for truu deliverance…
and how ur attitude comes across while u fill ur slot…

and as a live act, u always better have some great intro that let’s u make distance to whatever came before, gives u handfree options to get ur main gain right before u play ur real first drop, because nothing is more embarrassing, if ur full established sonic first impression is not on same eye/earsight level as the stuff they heard before…