Is this live mixdown setup overkill?

Dr.K · 2023-01-07T02:38:28.278Z

I would ask myself first if this setup is fun to use for a liveshow. If yes then go for it. Otherwise i’d use something else even if the sound isn’t perfect.
For me it would be too much to set up and worry about.

Joe_b · 2023-01-07T21:34:59.562Z

RhythmDroid:

• ADAT is converted to 4 SPDIF plugs, which go into the digital inputs of a Pioneer DJ mixer - no DA-AD conversion or latency added.

ADAT is a notoriously unreliable format and I would not use it live, certainly not with SPDIF adaptors.

I get the no-laptop idea but only up to a point. If your set-up becomes super convoluted, then maybe the cost-benefit (not just financial) should tilt in favor of using one.

I also get the keep-it-simple argument, but not as an absolute. If you can have everything racked up and then plug into the house with one power cable and 2 XLR’s, then why not indulge yourself with your dream workflow? (assuming you are cool with the transport and lifting)

I second @Dymaxion with rack mixer idea; Q-Pack or Yamaha TF-Rack which has more modest I/O but also costs a bit less and fits in a 2U rack rather than 4U for the A&H.

RhythmDroid · 2023-01-11T23:49:22.097Z

Dr.K:

I would ask myself first if this setup is fun to use for a liveshow.

That’s actually the question right there. Is it even FUN anymore when trying so hard to cover all extremes; pro-level recallable mixdown, low latency, and super flexible jamming.

RhythmDroid · 2023-01-11T23:58:31.056Z

maymind_trax:

I just think we are past delineating laptop or no laptop on stage.

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Personally as soon as I added Ableton Live into my live setup, everything else became much more fun.

Those are some meaningful insights right there, man–a great testimonial. I mean, once this reaches the point of not being fun - then what’s the point!? Am I indulging in self-defeating, perfectionistic, obsessive behavior by insisting that I need “full control” of every element.

I think 2023 is the time to jettison some self-sabotaging behavior patterns.

RhythmDroid · 2023-01-12T00:07:22.460Z

maymind_trax:

The M1s are amazing machines and paired with any groovebox / Elektron / whatever, you can literally do anything sound wise.

So, going out this limb hypothetically…I’ve already got an old but steady RME to provide for 8 analog ins/outs - how much could I be doing on, say, an M1 Macbook Air running Live while still keeping latency super snappy?
Like, 4 stereo tracks of stems and a multitrack mix of my analog/hardware with dynamics, EQ, and multiband comp + graphic EQ on the master out?

Tikoda · 2023-01-12T07:40:24.667Z

So snappy. You can do a lot before you get over 10ms latency including a mastering chain of sorts, lots of FX etc. being able to set up your FX/EQs with clips is so easy, not to mention sending PGM changes to synths perfectly in time.

You don’t reaaaally need graphical EQ unless you’re using live microphone inputs and even then that really is the sound engineer’s job? And then you need one for your monitor and one for FOH as well to ring out properly…. Simplify more!

ghostbuddy · 2023-01-12T07:44:17.732Z

If you play a lot of shows your equipment will get drinks spilled over them and generally just banged up. I’d go for the most cost effective, durable, simple setup possible. Bare minimum of what you need to play your set basically. Definitely don’t take your expensive and complex studio equipment with you unless you can afford to replace it after someone steals your gear or it falls down a flight of stairs.

Dymaxion · 2023-01-12T07:59:42.133Z

When attached to the Mac, the RME could already do the EQ, basic dynamics, and the mixdown before you even hit software, under external midi control, if you wanted it to. So you’d really just be looking at one loop in for your end of chain. Because the entire mix will be subject to the same latency, you’ve got more leeway there.

RhythmDroid · 2023-01-12T16:51:33.057Z

All y’all have been so SO helpful putting me back on the right track. A creative mind can wreak havoc if unleashed not in the pasture of art creation, but in the abstract field of “setup design”. Just a little shepherding through the candy shop of endless setup possibilities is all I need sometimes.

Ah yes! So the RME can still be the i/o for a laptop, and in that faculty, it CAN handle the EQ/dynamics/levels. Splendid! Thanks @Dymaxion

So the big question is: Is it time to sell my Behringer X32 Rack Digital Mixer to fund a Macbook Air? Yikes. 25 years of live shows - only 4 with a computer. I’m excited but still kind of suspicious heheheh.

RhythmDroid · 2023-01-13T20:10:20.588Z

Dymaxion:

When attached to the Mac, the RME could already do the EQ, basic dynamics, and the mixdown before you even hit software,

Question, can either one of the RMEs (UCX / UCX II) run the EQ and dynamics if the host is JUST an ios device? I already have a fairly powerful iPad. Does connecting to that unlock the TotalMix extended functionality?

EDIT: I think I found the answer. If you run a Fireface UCX in Class Compliant mode, you can connect directly to iPad and run TotalMix FX for ios. This will give you access to EQ and dynamics…but not reverb and delay – which is fine for me cause I would handle those externally anyway.

maymind_trax · 2023-01-13T20:50:42.584Z

Yes it is time!!! Move forward and upwards!!

Crudeliar · 2023-01-13T20:54:38.650Z

I no longer take my gear to a club: that era is over.
Do this: bring a laptop and some exotic midi controllers, like this one:

I assure you that your gig will be much more successful while your precious gear will remain safe in the studio

reeloy · 2023-01-13T20:55:04.825Z

…if ur a one man show on at least half frequent bases, all ur actual mindset is overkill…

forget about all computer or even standalone audio interface solutions…
way too complex to set up again and again, way too many loose ends where u or ur setup could fail u… way too fragile, way too much sound or at least line check effords u have to ask for upfront…

if u come from a computer background of any kind, best u can do is to get an ot, run decent exported final stems within an upfront well thought through prepared project, do some scene trickery games in realtime, have one little dirty synth for further tweaking and twiddeling fun on top of that, enjoy the moment, enjoy the stressfree setting up, feel relaxed and therefor more performative because u run a rocksolid little never lets u down setup that fits every stage solution, that u can really control but still have heaps of headroom to improvise the hell out of it without ever struggeling for loosing focus on what to do next in realtime…

99% of the audience have no clue what u do…all they can tell is, if u rock or not…
and way too many live acts just don’t rock, since they’re all way too realtime stressed out to get it right, instead of really serving smooth and well to wipe out a floor…

they don’t care how many knobs u actually really twiddle…they only care for truu deliverance…
and how ur attitude comes across while u fill ur slot…

and as a live act, u always better have some great intro that let’s u make distance to whatever came before, gives u handfree options to get ur main gain right before u play ur real first drop, because nothing is more embarrassing, if ur full established sonic first impression is not on same eye/earsight level as the stuff they heard before…

Dymaxion · 2023-01-13T21:45:09.540Z

Yup. You also lose all the midi control options in class compliant mode, so it’ll do EQ etc but you have to control them through the totalmix app.

RhythmDroid · 2023-01-13T21:50:29.065Z

I think this is the way to go. The Behringer X32 Rack has been very capable, but just soooo fiddly to navigate and way overkill for my needs.

Dymaxion · 2023-01-13T23:15:59.308Z

Also, if the iPad ends up having the juice and the latency ends up not being too bad, you can use software eq instead of hardware DSP, and you don’t have to decide now.

slicetwo · 2023-01-14T03:16:43.699Z

I’ve found myself a fantastic setup that allows me to compose my songs “live” while also easily integrating my rig into the studio.

I have the Digi-Trinity and a Micromonsta2 all feeding audio into a MOTU Ultralite MK5. That’s hooked up to my iPad Air 4 running AUM, with each synth having it’s own channel with necessary FX, as well as having a pattern change controller to get around the PC bug with the boxes. The Elektron boxes are hooked up to the iPad, as well, via USB to send and receive MIDI, and the DN sequences the MM2 directly via MIDI DIN due to groundloop issues with the MM2 and USB. I also have a Faderfox EC4 and UC4 hooked up via USB. The EC4 is used to control various synth parameters across all 4 machines, and the UC4 is for controlling various parameters on the iPad.

As I am currently building a box to house this entire rig, the biggest benefit of the Ultralite, in this case, is the ADAT IO. It has 8 analog inputs, 10 analog outputs, SPDIF IO, and then another 8 IO via ADAT. That means that I can take the entire rig into my studio, plug the ADAT into my Focusrite 18i20, and record all the individual tracks into my DAW, while also integrating the DAW sequencing and automation when I’m finalizing songs.

if I want to completely ignore the computer, the iPad has an insanely robust set of recording and editing tools available, along with FX and synths, to basically fill in any gaps you may have.

I did an entire live set with that rig last summer, and I’ve recorded a few releases using it, as well. It’s really a pretty cool and compact setup that is pretty flexible.

RhythmDroid · 2023-01-14T04:11:24.213Z

that is absolutely badass!
Great way of balancing so many aspects of hardware music production and performance.
Thank you for sharing!

Dymaxion · 2023-01-14T11:39:03.585Z

Something I’ve been meaning to figure out, but had a hard time finding anything like solid data on — how many channels can a modern ipad handle reasonably? Let’s say dynamics and EQ on all the channels, plus reverbs or other effects on maybe half of them? Like, you’ve got 18 channels in — could you process+record all of them at once reliably?

slicetwo · 2023-01-14T13:42:14.684Z

I’m only ever recording 4 stereo pair at a time max. If I’m using it as a mixer, the newer iPads are insanely powerful and I have no concerns of issues.