Is sampling cheating? (no of course it isn't)

As the saying goes - everything is a remix and the amount of new ideas in the world is incredibly small. It’s something of a shame that it’s becoming more difficult to justify sampling other records given all the moves towards copyright strikes and even identifying micro samples with technology. To me, sampling is like collage. It’s no less of an art form than regular songwriting, because you have to not only find your source material, but then put it back together in a way that works. Both have their place and both are valid.

I think the big difference is that it now feels like potentially the benefits of sampling or the technology aren’t always evenly shared. Because of those technological changes, I certainly feel like the options are to not sample at all or sample only using pre-made, commercial stock sounds. The part in the middle (recontextualising an existing song) is a high risk move unless you’re in a position to get that sample cleared or have the backing or funds to do so.

However, in my quest to learn about production, I found it fascinating just how commonplace the old version of sampling was. But even more-so also how commonplace it is to find a released record with a Splice loop in it. And to be honest, while it does slightly change my view of those songs, the fact they were made with commercial loops didn’t affect my enjoyment before I knew about it, so why should it affect it afterwards? As recently discussed, there are lines that can be crossed such as releasing a demo track for a sound pack as your own with minor changes. But most people are just on the hunt for material to make something cool with.

If you ask artists they will tell you that they will use whatever they can put their hands on. I’ve dug around in old sample discs and found stuff used by all kinds of artists. These days, that might be Splice or even Tracklib rather than pulling directly from a record. The main thing is to avoid a sludge match where one way of doing things is pitted against the other. Designing a synth patch doesn’t gain you any points if the song you make with it is rubbish. Likewise, using a pre-made loop doesn’t guarantee success in any way. Honestly, most people are combining all these techniques anyway. Everything is a remix - but it’s what you do with that remix that counts, not how you make it or what you make it with.

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It’s an argument as old as time—or at least as old as affordable samplers:

Kool Moe Dee’s comments at 4:04 are pretty candid about motives. It’s probably the most direct someone has been about it. It’s also interesting to see Lou Reed commenting on the matter, pre-“Can I Kick It?

Going back further to appropriative sound practices, the Variations series by Jon Leidecker of Negativland is a must-listen to anyone interested in going beyond the controversies of the eighties and sampling. Ranging from musique concrete to mash-ups, it puts the practice in a wide perspective.

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Its 2023. Sampling is very advanced. You can do so much with samplers now compared to the past.

I go on walks with my dog, record field samples and make pads and leads out of them. Personally I think one has to really redefine to themselves what modern sampling actually is.

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Thanks for the album tip, never knew that Daniel Rossen was in another band.

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Paul’s Boutique. I’ll flip a table if anyone even so much as mentions the word cheating in the same discussion of it. As masterful as any piece of art from the 20th century.

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As per the above, I have forced myself to actually half arsedly sequence/song mode a thing I’ve been playing with tonight on the Digitakt and record it. I was going to Octatrack instead but then I realised I was too lazy to work out how to record it so went DT so I could just easily record it into overbridge.

And another little thing.

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More Digitakt only cheating.

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Playing guitar is cheating. You don’t have to learn theory or read music, you just steal some chords and string them together to start, and as you advance you steal riffs, licks, ideas from other people and incorporate them into your playing.

Playing piano is cheating, because you’re just sightreading other people’s compositions to start, and it allows you to play anything in any key, which is cheating on just intonation.

Songwriting is cheating, etc etc etc. Everything comes from somewhere, and a tool is just a tool.

It’s all good, there’s a million ways to make music and they’re all valid.
Duchamp’s Fountain said everything about this a hundred years ago, and that story is only more relevant because… he stole the idea from Baroness Elsa von Freytag- Loringhoven!

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‘Sampling is like collage’

  • I totally agree. It invites you to look for textures and colours instead of objects, faces etc. Then it’s up to you to recontextualize them into new forms.

‘the options are to not sample at all or sample only using pre-made, commercial stock sounds’

  • I’d suggest a third option: create your own samples.
    I’m pretty sure it’s a commonplace technique these days. Beastie Boys, Portishead and many more have been doing it for years in various ways. Due to modern tech it’s fairly easy to do at home now.

I also agree with you about Splice loops and their use.

To me it just comes down to what kind of music you want to make. Doesn’t matter if it’s playing an instrument or sampling.
You could grab a guitar and record a boring 3 chords progression or try to come up with a more interesting riff or something. Same with sampling. You could use a boring sample loop that other people have already been used or try to find a more obscure sample and/or mangle it until it sounds fresh.

If I ever sample anything and add it to a track then yes I feel like it’s cheating, stealing and then it’s not my music. Then later on I’ll listen to some Endtroducing, Source Direct etc and think wow these guys are amazing and are wizards with samplers.
If it wasn’t for the likes of De La Soul, TCQ etc I would never have been introduced to all the soul and Jazz I have been listening to for years now.
I do hate the way some sample based people defend what they do by saying that if you use a synth or, unbelievable, an electric guitar then you are a sample based musician. Come on now! A world of difference between being able to create your own music as a pianist or guitarist to simply just taking someone else’s music and chopping it up a bit. My kids are both accomplished musicians on the guitar and piano and I am in awe when I hear them. We have a piano in the dining room so I hear my 14 year old playing his grade 8 pieces all the time, then he’ll start playing some lovely jazz chords. If he plays with my synths does he then become a sample based musician? Not for me he doesn’t.
I love sampling and listening to sample based music, except those guys on MPC forums that take a 4 bar loop, put some drums on it and call it a fire beat! Those guys suck big time! Love Madlib though, he does make fire beats!

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I think sampling like everything else is a discipline and like all disciplines it’s unnecessary unless you are a person whom follows that discipline and then like all disciplines it becomes very important… In addition to that there is more than one sampling discipline in existence so again like everything else there are layers to it… Personally I respect it immensely.

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Go muslim, man!

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Love sample based music, as there are some things synthesizers can’t do. One of my favorite sample based albums:

Also for those that are not into sampling, try sampling yourself, I bet you have tons of unfinished tunes, that have a lot of material for sampling. Sample your work, rearrange, chop, mangle your own work!

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…IF ur sonic result ends up MORE than just the sum of ur overall sonic ingridiences…
u’ve not cheated but created something new…

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The tools available to sampling musicians allow them to take practically any sound, then loop it, warp it or whatever it, then call that music.

For me, the question’s not so much about whether sampling is cheating, but rather how lazy the process of procuring samples can be.

The composers of musique concrète spent a lot of time splicing tape. I can only imagine they spent a commensurate amount of time procuring their source material.

Now, technology has made everything so easy. There is less necessity for forethought or deliberation in the artistic process. Just throw a thousand things against the wall and see what sticks.

Cheating is cheating. Not doing your homework, that’s not cheating.

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really if one thinks about it, the question of cheating isn’t really suited for the premise because at the end of the day people are talking about an art form, or expression, and one can cheat all day and night and still the end result would be an expression of that person, including their cheating and it would still be art because it would still be expression… so… if you are a person that believes in the existence of art (which tbh sometimes I’m not so the jury is still out on that one for me personally) but anyway I feel like what sampling is is just what it is…
art when used for expression.

I disagree with the cat in this clip, but sometimes sampling discussions remind me of stuff like this.

https://youtube.com/shorts/9gycMVx4wlw?feature=share

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7swxor

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