Groovebox with the features of the DirtyWave M8

The Lounge Other Gear
42

100% agree. It makes reading values annoying so your brain makes workarounds. Same with all the pitch stuff being in semitones or relative pitches to the last pitch which is hellish for music theory.

As with most of the things with the M8 the limitations are there because there’s no other way to do it in the space and form factor.

Also, saying it’s a simple device is so not the case. It’s simple to make a run of fast chiptune stuff within an hour of getting the device. But I’ve been using it every day for almost half a year and I’m only just getting used to it and all the workarounds to get to beautiful places. Even compared to the trigless trig LFO allsorts madness of Elektron, the M8 is a weird UX. It’s a wonderful weird UX but I wouldn’t expect anyone to get on with it instantly.

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43

I watched a 3 hour livestream tutorial about the workflow and the more I understood what was going on, the less I understood what was going on, and I honestly felt like it was because I understood what was going on that I could see that even the person explaining didn’t really understand.

The reason that civil engineers exist is so that humans can interact with the world around them in an efficient and comfortable way. If your countertop in your kitchen was 9 feet off the ground, you would have a very difficult time cooking on it, so they make it not just at an accessible height but at a height where you are not bending over too severely, or reaching up too severely and it’s within a strike zone such as it were, because not everyone is the same height, so they make compromises.

Major synth manufacturers, computer companies, watch makers, dishwasher designers, they all negotiate this by designing and engineering for humans, and because there is not only one kind of human they make compromises in order to make things accessible to more than one kind of human.

In the device in question, this concept is not implemented.

That, is the crux of the issue.

Except physically speaking, the device is impeccable. As far as what fits in your hand, you couldn’t really ask for more. The lack of “civil planning” is in the interaction internally, and maybe that just makes it as people are fond of saying “not for me” but the original point here is, what device is the same but “for me” and the answer seems to be “it doesn’t exist”.

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44

Absolutely not. I sing the bunny song or I don’t fucking leave. I draw a hard line here.

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45

Guys, please do not hijack this post to talk about using hexadecimals :slight_smile:

I understand the concern, but that’s definitely not the part that goes wrong for me. Having to program the notes one by one is the thing that really gives me the creeps. It goes all the way back to the 90s and it’s something I do not want to be forced to do. It is ok to fine-tune something, but I would definitely prefer to “play” the notes instead. Thus the reason why I am asking for something that has pads and encoders :wink:

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46

I keep hearing about the Deluge but I have yet to find anything online that shows an extremely good music piece made with it. I do not know if it’s because of its synths or what else, but all the music I have heard from the Deluge sounds a bit dull compared to other machines.

I would love to hear from someone who has spent a good chunk of time with it how it compares to the M8 or the Move or other grooveboxes from a sonic point of view

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47

yeah, good luck with your post.

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48

Yeah that’s a tough spot to find good solutions in. I really enjoy the Ableton Move, but it’s not as deep as an M8 and it’s meant more as a sketchpad for music you develop further in Ableton. But for being what it is, it’s really really neat.

1 Like
49

Personally I think the internal design of the M8 is the most well thought out and consistent design of any groove box type device I’ve used.

Take for example the Deluge, which was mentioned earlier. It’s a great device, but as more and more things were added the button combo’s became to unwieldy for me and I tapped out. I wanted access to all it had to offer but I was slowed down in my process of using.

Now, the M8 is probably the most updated piece of hardware in the past few years, and not one single addition has broken the workflow. That’s to me a testament to the underlying design principles of it. Hex aside, it doesn’t take that much time to be fully in the swing of things.

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50

I mean, I’m sure it gets used that way. But you can see the benefits of having a number system that counts in cycles of 16 when primarily making 4/4 music in bars of 16 steps, right?

That’s kind of the LSDJ/M8 story in a nutshell, actually. None of the UI was “engineered”, as you say. The entire experience was a hack constructed under the immense physical and visual constraints of a Game Boy as a way to use it as a music production system which, honestly, would be an absurd thing to try to engineer in the first place.

But weirdly, something about it really worked. Like, even after all the constrains were lifted, people still liked the feel of making music that way. True, it was more discovered than engineered. But what was discovered was no less true than if a committee of civil engineers has spent a bunch of time methodically iterating towards it. It’s just, because we stumbled upon it, we don’t have the paper trail of years of specs to explain exactly why it’s nice. Nor do we have the proper batch of affordances to on-board people seeing it for the first time.

It’s like the web. Berners-Lee made the web browser under the intense networking, compute, and UI constraints of NeXTSTEP. It succeeded beyond anyone’s wildest dreams, but wasn’t engineered to. It was discovered. It took a decade for Fielding to come along and dissect what accidental things done by Burners-Lee actually made it successful (in the form of REST).

I suppose LLDJ/M8/etc. are waiting for their Fielding to break down what about the design is really a necessary component for mobile music creation and which parts are just old constraints and/or gatekeeping.

I’d really love to discuss this more on the M8 thread, actually.

But, to keep the OP from getting grumpy:

I can’t think of anything that does virtual analog, FM, macro, and samples like the M8.

If you drop the FM and redefine “sampler” to be “ROMpler + small space for user samples and loops”, the Roland MC-101 checks most of the boxes. Small. Can run on (disposable) batteries. Has pads, pots, and faders. Contains quite a nice step sequencer with clip-based arrangement. The pads are reasonably playable but have arp/chord/scale modes, too. Motion recording without trackery spreadsheets.

I wouldn’t say the process of sound design is nice or comfortable. I think the average person would find it much more a nightmare than coming cold to the M8. But it’s possible. And sticking to presets, everything else about the box is very enjoyable.

Or what about the Circuit Tracks? My experience here is limited to the original, but the Nova synth engine is a lot of fun. And there’s lots of room for one-shot samples. Sequencer is super solid, and you certainly can’t complain about a lack of pads or knobs. Maybe not exactly portable… but it has a rechargeable battery. So feels portable in spirit, at least.

4 Likes
51

The OP-XY is about the only alternative that seems comparable in terms of capabilities as a portable device, while being more ‘playable.’

I don’t think it’s on the cards at all, with the way they released the DT2/DN2 recently, but Elektron could have been a serious contender if they released a ‘digi’ style box with an internal battery that let you choose what synth engines run on each track (samples/cycles/fm engines, etc).

If you’re actually interested in a M8, it’s worth spending £35 or so for a Teensy 4.1 and a microSD card, and running the Headless Firmware on it.

I was interested but hesitant about it - even after spending quite a bit of time watching tutorial videos trying to understand, and I didn’t really get it until I had my hands on it.

Then it all fell into place and I love the thing now - though I also understand why someone might prefer something with a more traditional step sequencer and hands-on controls.

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53

this I definitely agree with, and just to reiterate for anyone who hasn’t read the whole thread, no one is disrespecting the M8 Developer or his work with the M8, no one is even asking him to make changes to the M8… the M8 part of the discussion was only in regard to hoping that Trash80 might consider creating another beatmachine in the Formfactor of the M8 that wasn’t a tracker…fin

So the M8 community need not worry, it’s not about the M8.

Personally I think Trash80 really came out with the formfactor that should be standard for handheld instruments going forward… I wish the sp-404 came out in a formfactor like this instead of the loaf of piccolo form factor it has now, I’d buy one for each pocket!

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55

Yeah it really looks like the OP-XY is the only portable device with lots of capabilities. Its price range is outrageously high, though.

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56

I’d say the Woovebox definitely fits the definition as well.

57

That device is pretty underrated for what it can do. It has 16 tracks, 16 patterns, chord mode like what brain does on the XY, a song mode where you can have 99 fragments and automation!. Yes, it has a led screen, which i think it turns people off. Also its not a preset machine, which for me its fun, as i have to design the sound myself. Battery life is long. The developer releases so many updates ( with new features). The list goes on.

To be honest, its a good cheap alternative for the XY.

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58

So far the Move and OP XY ended up in my list of possible devices that could fill the gap. I am still not sure the OP XY would be a good choice due to how hard it would be to take whatever is built on that device and finish it on a DAW. Still thinking about that.

59

I have both Deluge and Move, and sonically they don’t compare - Move sounds much better in my opinion.

60

Move seems the best option. Real pads and only £400.

Seems like a great device to learn inside out. I would get instant buyers remorse from an OPXY.

61

I still don’t get why the OP XY does not easily export stems of the tracks out of the box

1 Like
62

Maybe they want to keep you in their ecosystem.

63

I’ve never touched one, but judging from the specs and videos, it seems the OP-XY doesn’t offer as much as the M8 in terms of sound design. You don’t have so many parameters to tweak in the synths (that’s what stopped me from considering it as an option).

If you’re deep into sound design, not sure TE can compete with the M8.