Good sized 2nd MIDI Controller for developing keys skills?

holonology · 2023-01-10T23:59:59.373Z

Hey! The scholar that is @monquixote is learning to play piano this year, but I had a related but also somewhat different question. I have a Launchkey Mini also, and I’m interested in other opinions on what a good second MIDI controller looks like. (Also I’m faily sure my youngest will smash the LK to bits any day now )

My goal is to become more fluid and proficient on the keys to make playing stuff in as easy as it is for me to play a guitar part. I tend to favour playing simple chords, basslines and lead melodies and I do take advantage of any smarts the keyboard has like arp/chord and scale modes.

As for where I’m at now; a typical project use case is in Ableton I start with a chord progression, and then I add other parts (drums/samples etc) while looping in session view. I then jam along with what I’m recording into Ableton - so the keys get used a bit, but it’s in combination with the keys/mouse too. I tend to overdub the notes that don’t fit on a 25 key controller (eg bass notes).

Based on what I’ve seen so far, I understand some folks say that 25 is too small but great for portability, but 37 and 49 offer a little more which is what I’m looking into now. There are lots of variations in the 37 range that I know people absolutely love, as well as the folks who say that a 49 is either a bare minimum or a sweet spot.

In your view, is the 32/37 size a good next step from a 25 for noodling around? And does the 49 (apart from extra faders & whatnot) gain a big advatages over a 37 (aka; you might as well get another octave if you’re buying a bigger board!)?

(Note: I have a space restriction and I have to remove the keyboard from the desk at the end of each session, as it is used for other things as well as my musical nonsense! Storage is something I have to consider, but it’s secondary to the stuff about the number of keys - but we don’t have room for 61’s and 88s etc.

Jukka · 2023-01-11T00:30:08.424Z

Are you playing two hands, or intend too ?

If so put your two hands on a keyboard. Let’s pick a key other than C major. OK - A minor then. All white keys again, that’s easy. Now put your left little finger on the lowest A, left thumb the next A up, right thumb on the next A, and right hand little finger on the A above. This is a reasonable position. You’ve just eaten a 49 key keyboard. Let your right hand range two octaves, and you’re at 61.

There is a reason, note wise why a piano has 88 keys, and why they are pitched the way they are.

You can use a strategic split in the middle of a keyboard and get by with 49. Thirty seven keys works if you simplify things down particularly with you right hand, and/or shift pitch on the keyboard, with music that doesn’t range around.

This is all just my perspective on things though, others here will have a different perspective.

hausland · 2023-01-11T00:36:58.384Z

Excellent take, thank you!

Juniper_Steels · 2023-01-11T01:12:42.747Z

Learning to play piano and gaining proficiency on the keyboard aren’t necessarily the same thing. I think a 49 key controller would be minimally sufficient for the latter. It allows you to sketch a bassline/chord progression and develop a modicum of ambidexterity on the instrument. Also, if you consider the range of an electric guitar from the open low-e string to the 24th fret on the high-e string is 4 octaves, that’s the same as a 49-key keyboard. That said, if you want to learn the piano, you’re gonna need a piano, or at least something with 88 keys.

Edit: Corrected description of guitar’s range

Jukka · 2023-01-11T01:22:36.862Z

Juniper_Steels:

Also, if you consider the range of a guitar from the open low-e string to the 12th fret on the high-e string is 4 octaves, that’s the same as a 49-key keyboard.

Good perspective !

That’s why you get good playing harmonics. Or play an eight string like Sarah Longfield !

Juniper_Steels · 2023-01-11T01:52:13.262Z

Jukka:

like Sarah Longfield !

I wish! I’ve been playing guitar longer than she’s been alive and I’m light years away from doing anything close to what she does…

ImNotDedYet · 2023-01-11T05:02:19.827Z

Many controllers have an octave selection key so you can play lower notes on the keyboard still by selectin lower octaves. (or higher)

If you’re wanting to “play piano” with both hands, a 49 key is the bare minimum and you’ll likely find as your playing grows, that you’re missing out on a lot of notes. If you’re looking to supplement what you’re doing in Ableton by jamming along with one hand, a 37 key should work fine for you. If the price difference and functionality set is similar between a 37 and 49, and you can find the space for it, go bigger.

Noumenaut · 2023-01-11T05:22:44.537Z

I would suggest also looking at options that have weighted or semi-weighted keys. Although any kind of keys will work for triggering notes (minikeys for miles these days), a large part of learning to actually play a keyboard has to do with developing a sensitivity to velocity and pressure.

monquixote · 2023-01-11T08:02:34.692Z

I had a 37 controller at some point and trying to play 2 handed you would go off the end very frequently.

holonology · 2023-01-11T09:13:14.451Z

Jukka:

Are you playing two hands, or intend too ?

I’d like to try for sure.

Juniper_Steels:

Also, if you consider the range of a guitar from the open low-e string to the 12th fret on the high-e string is 4 octaves, that’s the same as a 49-key keyboard.

This is where my lack of theory shines through, but this sounds like an interesting parallel!

Juniper_Steels:

Learning to play piano and gaining proficiency on the keyboard aren’t necessarily the same thing. I think a 49 key controller would be minimally sufficient for the latter.

Jukka:

You can use a strategic split in the middle of a keyboard and get by with 49.

ImNotDedYet:

If the price difference and functionality set is similar between a 37 and 49, and you can find the space for it, go bigger.

monquixote:

I had a 37 controller at some point and trying to play 2 handed you would go off the end very frequently.

OK so this is all sounding pretty clear cut, looks like 49 is the better next choice from a 25 mini for this specific purpose. One day I may have more space and whatnot - I think at that point I would look for something more substantial or premium. Thanks for the feedback folks, this is really helpful.

DimensionsTomorrow · 2023-01-11T09:18:26.078Z

I’m not sure if you can find one with a split option, but I’m finding that feature amazing on my Sequential Take 5, which I’m using as a midi controller as well. You can split to have one or two octaves lower, and it’s surprisingly useful with keyboard of that size (44 keys in the T5’s case).

canister · 2023-01-11T10:26:19.870Z

‘Also, if you consider the range of a guitar from the open low-e string to the 12th fret on the high-e string is 4 octaves.’
How are you counting that? I get 3!

DimensionsTomorrow · 2023-01-11T10:44:08.751Z

Three octaves, up to four depending on scale length if you count all the frets.

Mumdad · 2023-01-11T10:54:37.793Z

I have a Pro 2, another weird 44 key synth (are there any others besides those two?), and feel like 44 is probably the real bare minimum for two-handed ‘synth stuff’ as opposed to piano. Over the years I’ve often looked for 37 key synths/controllers as a good size for messing around on the couch but I think I’d miss those extra few keys now.

I’ve actually been on a similar sort of quest recently, debated a Take 5 since I don’t have an analog poly and love the sound of it but also pondering a Blofeld Keyboard as a cheaper option with more keys of an apparently especially good-feeling Fatar keybed with aftertouch and the lesser-spotted release velocity which I’d like for my current Waldorf, the M. Kind of feels like it might just be a stopgap until ASM or someone puts out a dedicated poly aftertouch controller series though.

Juniper_Steels · 2023-01-11T12:31:37.317Z

I was hasty in my reply, you’re right. How embarrassing…

Jukka · 2023-01-12T02:17:25.602Z

canister:

Also, if you consider the range of a guitar from the open low-e string to the 12th fret on the high-e string is 4 octaves.’
How are you counting that? I get 3!

Here’s how — Two octaves across the neck and then two more along the neck. ( or nearly two, depending how many frets are on the guitar, 22 or 24 is common )

We’re talking standard tuning with this, and who does that anymore ?

Juniper_Steels:

I was hasty in my reply, you’re right. How embarrassing…

First guess best guess. You shouldn’t doubt yourself !

Juniper_Steels · 2023-01-12T02:25:06.874Z

I was counting the number of e’s rather than the octaves between them…

Jukka · 2023-01-12T02:27:08.557Z

There are 5 different E’s not counting the duplicates, with a 24 fret guitar.

Sorry for being off-topic.

Juniper_Steels · 2023-01-12T03:19:12.834Z

My original post, which I subsequently edited to correct, was (mis)describing the range from the open low-e to the 12th fret of the high-e (not including duplicates).

Also sorry for being off-topic

holonology · 2023-01-12T08:50:21.708Z

All good folks, not off topic at all. I guess the wider thing for the guitar > keys transition is knowing how to choose a certain size of keyboard if you’re not familiar with theory. (You never have to question whether a guitar has enough frets or not hehe.) I put this question out to a few mates and others, and pretty much all of them did say the 49 rather than the 37 was the logical next step because it helped them play the whole middle of the keyboard, where with the 37 they still had to page around or transpose a bit more to avoid playing in the same key. I’m leaning on experience of others there, but I can already see how this will (eventually) make sense.

The message I’ve heard is that 49 is a decent sweet spot as a next step from the entry level mini 25s - especially if 61+ isn’t possible (which it isn’t in my case.) 37 is very popular from what I understand because these boards can be slim and somewhat compact (Arturia Keystep, Akai MPK Plus) or fullsize (Novation Launchkey/FLKey 37.) This is good because they give you more range than the 25 does, but in a package that is still quite portable. But I’ve also heard from multiple people that (as @monquixote says) as soon as you get a 37, you’ll want the 49 to progress. As a good middle ground I think this gives me plenty to build on for now.

Hopefully this is useful if anyone else comes searching with a similar question.