Fx machine lower the volume of the "dry" Track

sicijk · 2013-09-05T06:36:12.000Z

Last night something weird happened.

i had T5 to be output to A/B and BUS E/F
T6 was a Reverb with BUS E/F as input.

I started noticing that T6, when unmuted, reduced the volume of T5 to half (at least) the original.

No matter if Mix param was set to 0 or 127…

After some actions (one of them was to reassign the BUS connection using the C/D path) everything became normal.

what do you think has happened?

P.S.
speaking of weird behaviour, happened also that, even all track were muted, a really short glitch sound was coming from one of the tracks.
The MM is midi slaved from OT in my setup…
Experienced the same?

bluewolfse7en · 2013-09-05T20:02:16.000Z

Hmm, what you’re describing sounds like phase cancellation!
Are you bussing the same signal out, then back in, then thru the reverb?
i.e.is one sound taking 2 different paths?

sicijk · 2013-09-06T14:22:58.000Z

It is indeed static phasing.

And the signal goes to 2 different path, but internally!
This is the weird thing…i have both tracks to be triggered on the very 1st step…so i would not expect this issue.

Anyway:
im right going to replicate the problem and maybe have a .syx to upload.
Just to check if any of you can replicate my issue (i am a bit paranoid about this Elektron’s piece, since it is the only one that has been bought as second/third hand piece of gear)

meanwhile…thanks duDe!
d^_^b

bluewolfse7en · 2013-09-07T00:44:49.000Z

Yeah with such a miniscule difference in phase I’d expect, at most, more of a chorus effect. Sounds like you 're somehow half a waveform out or have polarity reversed the signal. Ill have a play 2moro & see if I can replicate it.
Cheers

jonah · 2013-09-09T04:50:15.000Z

I just got a monomachine and I’m blown away at how good it is for ambience and drones, using the delays and internal routing. Not one ever told me this!

Uhh, to get to the point, I notice a lot of “weirdness” with the delays that’s very much in line with doing feedback in “real” systems with multiple bits of hardware and a mixer that sounds similar to what you’re describing. Were you using delays on the machines too?

sicijk · 2013-09-09T07:49:17.000Z

The issue i experienced was happening with flat sounding track (no delay/eq/etc.)

It was a FM+ machine going to OUT A/B and BUS E/F too.
Then a FX reverb machine with BUS E/F as input (A/B output)

Anyway i completely agree with you Jonah…MM is a wonderful sounding piece of gear.
Thinking about it as a small modular system let you create soundscapes/drones and rhythmic pulsing weird things!
Have you tried to feed one track in the other 5 all set as Thru machines?
(found this in ElektronNextLevel at MM section) …gorgeous!

bluewolfse7en · 2013-09-10T17:47:25.000Z

Yep just tried this & there is most defiantly a phase/polarity issue!
Track 5 FM Static feeding A/B & E/F. (A/B feeds your speakers).
Stick a F2 on step one & say a D2 on step 9.
Set the seq running & listen, no need to tweak anything.

Now load a Reverb machine on Track 6 , output A/B, input E/F.
Pop a trig on step 1.
Turn Mix to 0 so your only hearing the dry signal.
Now if you lower Hold, Dec & Rel on the Amp page you’ll hear a strong signal from Track 5.
Turn these up & you’ll hear the low end disappear!
On the Syn page Inp is set to 63, I’m guessing this is mirroring the level on Track 5, because, if you move it either way things improve. Classic eg of cancellation!

bluewolfse7en · 2013-09-10T17:59:52.000Z

Interestingly, checking on my analyser, unmuting track 6 diminishes the signal by 6dB. That’s the magic, (or not so magic), number when it comes to cancellation!!!
Well spotted Sir

bluewolfse7en · 2013-09-10T18:11:59.000Z

Ahh FFS I’m such a knob jockey!!! Of course, there are 2 signal paths!!!
Go to Track 5 & remove output A/B. now use mix control on Track 6.
Grrrrr

sicijk · 2013-09-11T05:30:20.000Z

Sorry…can’t get it actually…I mean: i would like to understand why this out of phase happens…
Because it is random!

I would like to use both signal paths in order to have a better control of the two levels.
And opportunity to mute the wet signal and left only the dry…

Anyway,…,the weird thing lies on something unpredictable…holy shit!

-------------Have u experienced the volume lowering?---------------

EDIT:…sorry i didn’t see your test with analyser…

bluewolfse7en · 2013-09-11T08:48:50.000Z

What’s happening is here is that we are basically Y splitting a signal.
One goes directly to outputs A/B.
The other goes via a processor, (it’s the same with all the fx), & then to output A/B.
This processing take time, & this puts it out of phase with the 1st signal.

If you don’t want to use the mix control to balance both signals then you could reassign Track 5 to A/B & turn the mix control on Track 6 to full.
This will give you wet & dry.
I’m not in front of my machines ATM but I suspect the problem with this method will be that the Tracks are running in line so if you pull Track 5 (dry) level down Track 6 ( Wet) will lower as well.
I’m guessing what you’re after is a kind of aux send type of thing so you can mute/ unmute wet & dry signal at will?

I shall ponder this some more

sicijk · 2013-09-12T06:46:22.000Z

""bluewolfse7en"":

If you don’t want to use the mix control to balance both signals then you could reassign Track 5 to A/B & turn the mix control on Track 6 to full.
This will give you wet & dry.

Yes! my intention (when i encountered this issue) was to have an aux send feeding an FX machine. And using its Mix control at max.
Infact i first encountered the issue with these values…then i tried with Mix at 0…and then the known tale.
Thinking that an internal routing managed by DSP gives this Ø…really tickles me…
Should ask for correction in future OS update?
When the signal Y-splits…align the timing…dont know: Reverb needs 2 msec - Chorus 1msec - etc…i am just throwing numbers now…ehehehe
So the physical output should delay by that amount in order to go in phase with the Fxed one…

sicijk · 2013-09-12T06:50:36.000Z

""jonah"":

Uhh, to get to the point, I notice a lot of “weirdness” with the delays that’s very much in line with doing feedback in “real” systems with multiple bits of hardware and a mixer that sounds similar to what you’re describing. Were you using delays on the machines too?

No…the track was spitting that short glitches was with DSEND at 0…!!!
But the glitchsound had repetitions…delay!