Finally, the perfect mixer? [Allen & Heath QuPac]

The Lounge Other Gear
#715

Thank you for such a simple and well thought out reply. Really spoke to the slow learner in me :sweat_smile:

This was more or less my take in setting up the Qu but things kept feeling overly convoluted and messy for some reason.

I liked the idea of using the mix sends as a sort of patch bay that could combine multiple signals as you mentionedā€¦ though I often had trouble gain matching everything going in and out without adding artifacts. More a me problem than anything.

Regardless, today I actually sold my Qu-32 to a church to fund a Push 3. Decided to Pare-down to that with an Adat IO and see if I can make something work for me there! Definitely a lot of table real estate has been gained.

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#716

On the SQ, you might find it useful to set up a separate customized control layer ā€” you can absolutely customize it so you get your sends to an effect next to the returns. You canā€™t necessarily get everything on the same layer (unless youā€™ve got a big board or only a few sources), but it is possibly. For an external controller, you might look at the Midifighter Twister ā€” itā€™s nice and compact and gives you visual feedback on all the knobs. It can do 6 layers of the 16 knobs. That said, if you really want 64 values all showing all the time, thatā€™ll get a bit pricey. Iā€™m not aware of anything that will do feedback thatā€™s more compact or notably cheaper, though.

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#717

An alternative if you do not need physical knobs or faders are the A&H Ipad apps, which allow controlling all aspects of the Qu (and probably also SQ) mixers. Their interface can be personalized to a reasonable extent, they indicate the state of parameters, and also reflect all changes made directly on the mixer. (And a 2nd hand Ipad + wifi router is not necessarily more expensive than a good Midi controller.)

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#718

Iā€™m sure this is an amateur question but I figured it may be worth asking for next time Iā€™m back in this situation.

If I set mu main inputs at unity and got my signal running at a good level I would often find that sending that signal pre fader through my mix out at a much lower volume and back into a return at a much lower volume would still be too loud. I never understood this behaviour.

#719

Thanks for the suggestions @osaka and @ccr! But yes Iā€™ve got too many sources and sends, and too few channels (SQ-5) to make it work on the SQ as Iā€™d like even with using custom control layers.

And yes, @ccr the iPad app is another ā€œway inā€ and Iā€™ve got an iPad and router setup (I do live engineering gigs solo with the SQ too so handy for setting monitors).

I donā€™t think either of these solutions will give me access to 16 channels x 4 sends at the same time though.

Iā€™ve got some BCR2000s already, and they would be perfect except they are massive (plus Iā€™m kinda using them for other things and have only one spare). If Behringer releases the BCR32 then thatā€™s clearly gonna be the best hardware solution Iā€™m aware of.

Looked at the Faderfox EC4 (elegant and small but expensive and too few encoders, and Iā€™d prefer LED rings to a screen/scribble strip) and PC12 (not LED and also expensive, BUT has snapshots which could be very cool). Midi Fighter Twister is also cool but itā€™s expensive and Iā€™d need 2 to get to the same place I can get to with one BCR2000.

Iā€™m probably going to end up using Midi Designer pro on the iPad but that knocks the iPad out of other tasks. Cheapest, most customisable option. Itā€™s just not the same as having some real pots. BUT it will do snapshots which is a great idea! I could have a load of pre-configured FX send combinations and slam between them for delay and reverb throws across multiple channels with a single button press! Now thatā€™s exciting me as a possibilityā€¦

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#720

Not an amateur question at all - gain staging / structure is tricky and the process can be confusing on digital mixers in particular.

Your signal flow for sends is probably something like this, with gain adjustments possible at every point in the chain:

Input Gain -> Channel Trim -> Channel Insert FX input gain / output level settings (if present) -> Channel Level (if send is post-fader) -> Channel Send to Mix Amount -> Mix Trim -> Mix Insert FX input gain / output level settings (if present) -> Mix Level -> External Hardware input gain / output level settings -> Return Input Gain -> Return Channel Trim - Return Channel Insert FX input gain / output level settings (if present) -> Return Channel Level.

Phew. Complex signal path! So there are LOTS of places your signal could be too hot or not hot enough.

This is what the signal generator on a mixer is for - set it to 0dB and run that pure sine tone through your signal chain and adjust the gains/levels as you go to ensure no clipping and a level of 0dB at every point you can measure it. Then you know youā€™ve got no cut or boost to the level happening.

3 Likes
#721

Great explanation and advice. I will surely return to this if/when I buy a digital mixer again.
Matching levels with the signal generator seems like a great way to match levels and if Iā€™m running on a default scene I imagine I may only need to do it once to get an accurate reading of where fader positions should be when using a number of send FX.

Meanwhile I will use the same tip set up my sends and returns on on the Push 3 ADAT outs!

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#722

Which adat expander will you hook up to push 3.

#723

Does anyone have tipps for the qu pac - how to achieve maximum loudness? I.e. -8db LUFs with the internal compressor /limiter? Is that possible in your opinion? What is your expierience here?

#724

Have you tried the A&H Qu forum? In my experience, people there are very responsive.

#725

You might try setting up compressors on your busses to push them into main with the comp set up more like a limiter ā€” most folks pushing for those kind of levels do it in at least two stages.

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#726

This is what i tried, i have an Octatrack input channel where i put a limiter, and then another one on the LR channel, where i compress the other signals with the bassline from the OT. (Other channels are MPC, Erica DB1, a LXR from Erica, and some fx pwdals, an Analog4) i have set it to infinite and 300 micro seconds, but that was possibly a bit to extreme settings.) That is why i asked what is sensible with the Qu.

#727

ā€¦not sure what ur tryin to do and where u wanna end up with the sum of ur qpacā€¦

iā€™ve made the experience, that usually, using te qpac as my stage mixer and giving out itā€™s master sum to foh via passive di boxes or multi stage boxes, or even directly to pa, iā€™m always comin in too hotā€¦and have to turn down qpacs main busā€¦
while all my internal gainstaging is properly set and no internal compressors at workā€¦
they do a decent job on various single instruments, while on any electronic gear main outs, theyā€™re pretty unneccesaryā€¦

so i hardly doubt, u really need any further dynamic squeezing for gaining loudnessā€¦pretty much the oppositeā€¦recheck ur signal flow and ur actual perception of ur overall gainā€¦
if ur single channels floating close to 0db and so is ur qpacs main bus, u should be already way more than fineā€¦and no further compressor will make that any betterā€¦the only thing that could push ur loudness perception any further would be a truu brickwall limiter, which is not part of qpacs internal fx selectionā€¦

when i was new to the qpac, i also thought, i better put a compressor on the mainbus, put it in a kind of dead end limiting mode to get ā€œmoreā€ out of itā€¦but after a while i realised, ooops, untouched dynamics do all the trick it needs, if the single inputs are gainstaged properlyā€¦
and as said, ihave to turn down the mainbus gain always a little eversinceā€¦

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#728

I stopped on the inputs when the metering is green, you suggest i go on the Kick input near zero, which is close to red? Then no additional compression is needed?

I will try your suggestion the next session, thank you.

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#729

Using XLR or balanced jacks is not the same, I found.
On XLR my Elektron boxes were coming too hot. With balanced jacks I have way more headroom.

Or thatā€™s what it seemed on my first setup. Maybe I should check again now that I know this mixer betterā€¦
Only ā€œproblemā€ now is when I record, my tracks in Ableton are very thin.

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#730

I got Midifighter Twister, can you please suggest how can I pair it with QU-SB? Still canā€™t get the process. Am I need Bome translator for this? And Iā€™m totally not into programming SYSex. Will I still be able to mate Midifighter and mixer? :relaxed:

#731

So, there are two options. If you have the mixer plugged into a laptop with the drivers installed, it can do midi over USB, but I donā€™t think itā€™s class compliant, so other kinds of USB midi host devices probably wonā€™t work. Alternately, you can use the Bome Box to host the midifighter and connect the Bome you the mixerā€™s network control port. A&H have pretty good documentation for what it sends and accepts. It uses NRPN, not Sysex. If itā€™s not possible to make the midifighter do NRPN as the qu needs, a license for Bome midi translator pro will let you create a translation file that should do the trick, or a midihub can do it. Itā€™s a bit of a faf if you donā€™t already have the Bome, but entirely doable.

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#732

Thanks a lot for the answer. My advanced MIDI knowledge didnā€™t went much farther than MIDI-learn option. I tried stoically to dig into the A&H documentation couple of times, but feel like I need step-to-step guide. Yes, I use mixer connected to laptop having not BOME. Just tried to recognise and copy-paste in Ableton MIDI commands that mixer sent over USB when I touch some controls on iPad. With some commands it worked, like Mute channels or something else.

So, I need to buy their Box for this task, yes?

But I can confirm that there is no need to have much skills to send MIDI program change command from laptop to my QU-SB. So, Iā€™m changing presets on mixer as easy as Iā€™m changing patches on synths. Just creating dull MIDI-clip, sending number of preset and voila, mixer changing presets from scene to scene automatically.

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#733

I tried it the last time with your advise - no additional compression on the input, and balanced around the kick input, worked a lot better. We will set up all sounds with amp level, and let channel level to be controlled on the device itself, to avoid too high volume spikes.

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#734

Ah, if youā€™re using it with the laptop attached, no extra hardware needed, but you will have to sort out making sure the output from the twister is routed through to the mixer and then setting the twister to send the right values. Iā€™m not sure if the twister can do 14bit NRPN, so you may have have Ableton do some midi translation for you. I canā€™t really help with that bit (never touched it), but you should be able to get it to work without any extra hardware. Good luck!

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