Elyra a crossover between a Synth and a Guitar/ Bass

The Lounge Other Gear
#22

hmm…
well I cannot compare, as not seen the Elyra in person, nor played it.

but in terms of synth/guitar crossover, here’s what I can say about the Eigenharp.
(I’ll talk about the Alpha, but most applies to the Tau, less so the Pico)

it supports a strum mode (implement by Geert, long before he did it on linnstrument ;))
this actually works really well, as it uses the lower percussion keys as the strum ‘keys’.
(remember these also have full expression, and are extremely light touch, as is the whole eigenharp)

as for aesthetics… this one (imho) the eigenharp is hard to beat for ‘performance’
its one of the few, expressive controllers that is designed to be worn, and performance was a critical goal.
the designer said, they wanted to bring the keyboardist out front, centre stage … rather than being stuck behind the keys at the back :slight_smile:

so, the eigenharp is designed to be played on stage,
you can have a 30m cable, so that the computer can be off-stage.
the strap is designed with a single connection point, so you can ‘perform’ (swing it around like a rock star :laughing:) , but due to CoG is perfectly balanced.
it has mic (on breath pipe) /headphone (for in ear monitors) inputs

yeah, its ergonomics are designed around holding it similar to a guitar, it feels natural - playing from both sides is never a stretch.

of course, it cannot really be played ‘on a desk’, the alternative is to play like a ‘cello’ with a spike seated, which also works really well.

I guess my point here is… these were obvious design goals from day 1, rather than trying to adapt a ‘desktop instrument’

as for controller vs synth, I think thats kind of a moot point these days.
these days, even an SoC like a rPI is powerful enough to ‘drive’ these things,
or as then Eigenharp was designed its fine if you have a stage box as long as the cable is long enough…
lets face it an electric guitar is ‘connected’ to the stage via audio cables… and its done ok :wink:

overall, yeah the strumming method is fun for certain types of sounds.
but I think like any instruments it benefits a lot if there is tactile feedback
(which is hard to tell on videos Ive seen of this)

aesthetics, partly its personal taste…
(of course, in performance, you might also care about what the audiences sees, as it could be considered ‘part of the show’)

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#23

just to be clear… no shade here on Linnstrument / Elyra.
they have lot of design goals and their own use-cases, and when covering multiple goals compromises have to be made.

the Eigenharp is an exceptional instrument,
but if you look at it critically, its lack of success was perhaps down to not compromising. Eigenlabs had a very strong vision for it, from which they would not depart/compromise.
thats a hard stance to take for something that is so new/innovative.

in fairness to Eigenlabs, there were not many expressive controllers around at the time…
I think just the continuum (?), which was also aimed at the ‘professional’ market, rather than trying to sell to a larger audience.

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#24

Music Radar talks about Elyra

https://www.musicradar.com/news/elyra-bll-instruments-synth-guitar

#25

How would you otherwise produce different frequencies/notes on a stringed instrument?

During the years I’ve played the Stick (a 12 strings Grand, a long time ago), it has always felt a very ergonomic instrument to me. You (double) strap it to your body, almost vertically, without having to hold its weight (it’s all on the hips), playing with both wrists in neutral position.

Way more ergonomic and “shoulder friendly” than my top heavy 5 string basses, for example.

image (first img I found on the web)

#26

That’s my point: with acoustic stringed instruments, you can’t set up the fret distances in an ergonomically and cognitively optimal way, as a digital instrument like Elyra can. You must make concessions to the laws of acoustics.

The right hand wrist in the photo is not neutral. That’s the carpal tunnel-inducing configuration: hand rotated toward the outside so that fingers are at an angle with respect to the forearm; couple that with the fingers’ fine motor movements, and you’ve got the formula for carpal tunnel syndrome. Personally, I also had brutal elbow tendinitis. If you’re not plagued with tendinitis and don’t have to attend to bodily tension all the time, I envy you.

Yes, basses are brutal–I’ve played 11±pounders. I used to have a 2-shouldered strap that would at least distribute the weight equally, but it was inconvenient to use, and the playing position also wasn’t ideal. Anymore, I play bass exclusively sitting down. Stick is even more inconvenient: you have to strap all that stuff on and have a belt that will support properly. I used to also play Stick sitting down supported by a wooden dowel across my lap. That’s what I meant by my bassoon analogy: it’s fine if you totally conform to it, which imposes a lot of inconvenient limitations on movement. If “inconvenient” to describe the Stick works better than “non ergonomic,” then that makes sense to me, too.

#27

Only Right-Handed?

#28

strumming_G_1
strumming_G_11000×563 55.7 KB

#29

You have 2 stumming zones on the ther side for left handed people !

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#30

Right. In that specific higher fretting position the right wrist is not neutral.

Compare that to any position on electric bass, while playing pizzicato, on both plucking and fretting hand. If you play hard, with a hard touch and too much energy, it can easily become tendinitis heaven.

Personally I’ve had tendinitis both from physical training (pullups obsessed) and also from playing (a cheap student double bass in the Conservatory) and too much rock :slight_smile: on electric bass…).

With the Stick, considering how low the action is and how little tapping strength is needed to produce a clean sound, I don’t think it’s an issue for most people.

According to some people, Emmet real “innovation” was not just the instrument itself but actually moving from a standard playing position (think Stanley Jordan) to a more upright one.

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#31

This is a silly debate. Every stringed instrument in the history of music, despite its ergonomic idiosyncrasies, has been played to the highest level of proficiency.

Yes, repetitive strain injuries do occur on occasion; but they are only ever the result of poor technique or an unrelenting schedule, regardless of the instrument.

I’ve been playing guitar, roughly 40 hours a week, for almost half a century, and have never thought twice about the fret spacing. Nor do I find the symmetrical playing surface of the LinnStrument to be a huge benefit or deciding factor over the guitar.

To which end, anyone presuming to cite these foibles as a hindrance, is either not applying themselves or looking for an excuse to move on.

Sufficed to say, it would be shortsighted to make this the main design focus of an instrument like the Elyra, because that would be solution looking for a problem. Tactility, expressivity, and connectivity, on the other hand, those are legitimate challenges in the field of performance controllers.

Cheers!

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#32

Yeah, really. Bottom line is that my bass guitar time is very restricted, and I’ve effectively given it up, even though it sits there prominently in my setup 24/7. For me, it’s not hand pain from fingering, but wrist-elbow-shoulder from standard playing positions–no way around it. Grief. That’s why I have this continued interest in digitized guitars, where vibrating string acoustics don’t restrict the geometry. Nothing’s ever come close to working out, and I don’t even have any pie-in-the-sky ideas for something that would. Elyra’s worth a consideration for me, but the way the left hand strains to wrap around to the note buttons almost certainly wouldn’t work out for me.

Oh yeah: my best compromise over the years has been to mount guitars on a microphone stand, which gives me a lot more “safe” playing time. I have MBrace mounting brackets for that, but talk about inconvenient and non-portable…

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#33

That was exactly my point.

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#34

It’s an interesting point to consider that all these makers of digital controllers might have emulated acoustic string spacing instead of uniform spacing of their triggering elements. Novation’s controllers, Ableton’s Pushes, Eigenharp, Haken Continuum, Ztar, Linnstrument, all those slab controllers with arrays of same-sized little squares, for example. They could have implemented large width (say 1.5 inches like a bass) down to the narrow 0.25 inches of the 24th fret of a guitar for their trigger elements instead of a rectangular array of uniform-sized elements.

I don’t see the appeal of it at all, preferring a uniformly comfortable and optimized size rather than having to develop compensating technique, but apparently some would be interested.

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#35

string spacing is obviously down to a physical constraint rather than being because it was ‘perfectly’ ergonomic etc - and in itself has limitations (e.g. number of octaves)
why limit yourself in your design if you dont have that constraint?

the ‘only’ advantage is muscle memory for guitar players
( and then you have to be pretty slavish to the form factor to really work)
and we have seen this, there have been various midi guitars (etc) over the years.
but they dont appear to do too very well… ( * )

interesting though, as on keyboards we have this has been important.
look at the how much some dislike mini keys.
and in the expressive camp , the debate around how close the Osmose and Roli are to traditional keyboards… and how this has generally been perceived as a good thing.

but overall, I think unfortunately, in todays world … often additional features/functionality often sell better than design/feel. frankly, its probably easier to target the ‘mass’ market at and ‘affordable’ price, than to go for the pro market with higher price.

I feel disappointed we don’t have some more ‘premium’ expressive controllers.
Ive been disappointed by many offerings in recent years, as they just lack the sensitivity and precision that you need in an instrument.
and frankly, the Continuums and Eigenharp (Alpha/Tau) feel like they are in different league for quality.

(though a shout out to the Osmose, these does feel great, and after a few initial QA issues, I do think is a quality offering)

anyway back to Elyra… good luck to to them, I’d love to give it a try at some point in the future.

( * ) I do wonder, if partly this is because more there are more keyboard players interested in synths, than guitar players… though, that said, even a tiny % of guitar players is still a pretty huge market.

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#36

Have you ever handled a SynthAxe? I’ve never had the opportunity. I always thought it had uniform fret size, but the pics I now find look like the frets get a bit narrow in the upper octave. That might be an optical effect. I wish SynthAxe had gone through a few more rounds of development.

Another personal taste thing is tethering. I’d rather sacrifice some sound options than run some long cable to a computer. Just too much anxiety associated with computer glitches. Ever get an email while your computer was broadcasting over a PA? It might be illusory security to have a standalone, but a lot of people feel this way. Look how many guitarists go totally untethered with those tiny little wireless devices.

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#37

You’re extracting the wrong message here.

No one is advocating for controllers to mimic the unavoidable physical oddities of stringed instruments. We’re simply saying that it is neither an obstacle or a benefit. It just is what it is.

Be it a guitar, a violin, the Linnstrument, or the Elyra… Nothing in the design is holding you back.

Perfectly symmetrical playing surfaces present their own challenges, because they provide less sensory feedback. I could play the guitar blindfolded, because I know exactly where I am on the fretboard, based on a dozen factors: i.e. string gauge, the thickness of the neck, fret spacing, etc.

Whereas the LinnStrument requires that I keep it in my peripheral at all times, because there’s nothing telling my fingers where they are.

Yet, I’m able to play both instruments proficiently.

So, it’s a lateral move, either way.

Cheers!

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#38

I wanted to address this point separately, if only to lend some perspective…

Make no mistake, we are all playing injured. Every professional musician I know, and most of the hardcore hobbyists too. Repetitive strain is just a part of the game.

Playing any instrument, to a high level of proficiency, is no different than being a serious athlete—you have to stay in shape, work smart, and be vigilant. Wear and tear is inevitable, and must be managed accordingly.

Hell, people develop crippling tendonitis from typing. It’s not war story. It’s simply a matter of developing better technique, and going to physiotherapy if necessary.

All that to say, if you’re hoping to find an instrument that doesn’t pose this pitfall, I don’t think you’ll ever find it.

The Elyra will be no exception in this regard.

Cheers!

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#39

I can’t really play the guitar, so honestly, even the strummer on the Eigenharp was more a curiosity for me than something I used regularly.
that said, I do appreciate the different feel/style you get.
Ive also been considering messing with the Eagan Matrix in this area, I like the idea of the exciter being more directly controlled by my right hand… and also messing with a patch that has strumming (though designed for the Continuum)

Cables/Computer vs Standalone.
yeah, yeah… Ive been this route … a couple of years ago, (like everyone else) - I went thru a phase of going fully ‘out of the box’.
whilst great, for a while - overtime, it just gives a different set of issues.
these days, for me, Id much prefer a computer was the centre.I never have ‘computer glitches’. if I was doing live performance, Id just have a dedicated laptop/setup for it, its a non-issue (for me)

now, Im pretty skeptical about the recent push to (digital) dedicated hardware . frankly, I feel it serves manufactures/synth-tubers/gas much more than musicians. its consumerism at its finest… keep selling you a new ‘thing’., even though you have a much more powerful/flexible version already on your desk.
computers with dedicated hardware interfaces/controllers are the future!

that said, my (technical) skill set is rather unique, so I respect for others it may be different.
everyone should go the route they feel most comfortable.

back OT though, as I said at the top, I do like the idea of something like Elyra.
something that uses the guitar ‘form factor’ at its centre, and I think it’s always interesting having a sound engine that has been designed specifically for the hardware surface.
definitely some of the best (expressive) playing experience have been with this combo of dedicated engine with surface… and is something that haken have pushed for years. ( * ).

perhaps for me… if Elyra developed a really great sound engine that suited its form factor,
then this would be ‘all I need’ from it… just view it as a complete instrument, rather than a controller.

( * ) for years, they said they would not produce a standalone haken sound engine, as the sounds needed to be tailored to the surface to get a good result - arguably with the EMM they softened their stance a little.

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#40

A new video from Synthfest :slight_smile: