Electronic vs traditional instruments

pselodux · 2015-04-21T23:14:05.000Z

Guitar was the first instrument I learned (25 years ago!), and the one I always come back to because I keep learning new techniques. That said, since I got the Monomachine I’ve started thinking of that as a real instrument in itself, and something I need to learn and rehearse with in order to become competent, rather than just being a ‘composer’ like in (for example) tracker software.

So in terms of satisfaction they’re probably on par; I can get more out of guitar at the moment but that’s because I’m not fluent on the MnM just yet

As for the show factor, yeah it tends to be more entertaining to watch someone playing a traditional instrument… but then again I’ve been to chiptune shows where someone using only a couple of gameboys has more stage presence than I’ve ever had while playing guitar on stage!

TrabanT · 2015-04-22T05:10:56.000Z

""reptilazio"":

i feel i am not a real musician

uh !

MK7 · 2015-04-22T07:28:51.000Z

It depends on how you approach electronic instruments. The Elektrons (or similar gear) are instrument - computer hybrids. You can approach them like instruments (connect a Midi keyboard and play notes, sequencer stopped), like computers (program tracks in song mode, prepare all automations ‘offline’, then press play and listen to the machine’s performance) or anywhere in between.

I approach them very far but not 100% on the instrument side. This is most fun for me and fits the best to my intense piano etc. background in younger years.

My current workflow, where I prepare kits in advance but create all the ‘events’ on the fly, live record and loop some things, not others reminds me very much of a traditional instrument approach. On a piano you have a sustain and a dampener pedal and a lot of velocity-sensitive timbres at your finger tips. The sustain pedal holds notes so that it keeps playing even when you release your hands. A looper or live recorded sequence sustains your sound in a different way, which serves the very same purpose though. Mapping a lot of parameters to velocity and aftertouch on the Rytm is like changing screws on your traditional instruments or the angle with which a grand is opened. Etc. etc. traditional instruments also can have a technical side, you just usually don’t dig as deep into details but rather call a technician (violin specialist, piano tuner guy etc.).

Looks and sounds very different to traditional instruments, but has to be practiced and played. At the moment I see this on par or even one step ahead of touching a piano. If you just could customize the piano more

I have to approach the machines like this, otherwise I wouldn’t have so much fun. The Elektrons are not the most spontanous devices so you have ro put some effort into it before they feel like instruments in the traditional sense.

Another comparison with traditional instruments: the church organ. You might argue that it’s an electronic instrument, and of course it is, but it’s very traditional as well. There is a whole science about how to press the keys, you get different types of sounds to choose from (wooden or metal pipes), no velocity, a rather standard amp/filter envelope (attack, release = 0, sustain = max) and you have to use these available things to play, say, a Bach Fugue as expressively as possible. You have to be very sensitive at how you press those keys (sostenuto and stuff) in order to achieve a ‘singing’ melody. I think that’s very close to playing a melody on a synth. Of course you can turn knobs on the synth that are not there on the church organ, but that just gives even more potential for a nice, musical outcome.

For me, there’s not much difference between electronic (not so much sequenced) music and traditional instruments. I think the gap is greater for people with a guitar, flute, violin etc. background, although there are also continuum instruments and guitars can get very electronic.

Interested to hear further thoughts.

J_C_Selector · 2015-04-22T08:01:07.000Z

E l e c t r o n i c

MK7 · 2015-04-22T09:37:11.000Z

""J_C_Selector"":

E l e c t r o n i c

What do you mean? I was just taking the Elektrons as main example, but what I said refers to a lot of other electronic gear as well, right?

Ok, when comparing playing on a cheap standard keyboard vs. playing on a piano or even concert grand it’s much easier: I would choose the piano/grand for sure, so I was assuming some kind of sophisticated electronic setup which I guess we all here are using.

One more thought: the delay effect. Some classical (impressionistic) music tries to imitate such effects via challenging finger techniques but that’s one thing I really don’t need. Why make it complicated where we have nice electronic effects now?

J_C_Selector · 2015-04-22T10:39:06.000Z

I pretty much started with electronic instruments.
Started with an Akai S900, a crapy Yamaha keyboard and an Atari in my early teens. I learnt piano b4 this which gave me great musical skills ( Suzuki method, if you’ve heard of it). Also I was a bit of a bedroom DJ/scracth master which I’ll class as an electronic instrument also (insert negative opinion here).
I taught mysefl Bass, drums and guitar (badly) but pretty much never play these now, mainly because most guitar based music doesn’t affect me in the same way electronic music does.
So to sum up, sound designing, playing, mastering new gear (and building) electronic instruments is one of the things that gives me the most plessure in life.

Oh, and "E l e c t r o n i c " was the answer to your question
“electronic vs traditional instruments”

MK7 · 2015-04-22T11:23:46.000Z

Very interesting and thanks for clarifying what you meant.

Electronic instruments really have some ‘magic’. Traditional instruments as well but there is far less new to discover.

reptilazio · 2015-04-22T14:38:04.000Z

really interesting opinions thanks but what do you think about the connection to the audience? do you think some time in the future that normal people (not musicians) can appreciate and enjoy a electonic performance like they do a rock band with out all the visuals that electronic music use on the live shows.

MK7 · 2015-04-22T14:58:53.000Z

""reptilazio"":

really interesting opinions thanks but what do you think about the connection to the audience? do you think some time in the future that normal people (not musicians) can appreciate and enjoy a electonic performance like they do a rock band with out all the visuals that electronic music use on the live shows.

If that’s your concern, just plug in a Midi keyboard, drum pads or some type of Guitar style controller. People ‘understand’ that more than someone playing a melody on the A4’s mini keys, for instance.

There are a lot of famous electronics-based artists. The Prodigy is the first that comes into my mind because they frequently play on Rock events, but there are a lot of other examples. It’s not that people don’t appreciate electronic performances…

EDIT: of course there are different kinds of people. It will take some more decades until the standard classical concert antenders might appreciate something like techno as music at all and playing an electronic machine as playing an instrument. But then there are these concerts with washing machines, vacuum cleaners and hair dryers which eventually gets much more respect than the much much more sophisticated electronic music department, I don’t understand that. I think it’s about how the artists look like. Let’s return to the discussion about instruments, makes more sense to me

jeffe · 2015-04-22T16:28:04.000Z

I don’t always get the ‘not fun to watch’ idea - I mean, physically, how different is manipulating a table of gear to playing a piano?

Maybe the barrier to entry on electronic instruments is lower, and so performances with a lot less creativity / inspiration make it to public eye quicker.

Both excite me equally - I can strum my guitar all night or I can get locked into a half of page of code trying to make it do more with less with each iteration.

LyingDalai · 2015-04-22T16:53:06.000Z

I believe the feeling is the key.
As long as my mind is high up with the clouds of music I don’t care the medium.
A simple bin is OK !

Now for the audience, I think that you have to show some physical involvement , to show your connection with what you’re doing, so that you show them the way to join you in the clouds…

jeffe · 2015-04-22T17:14:03.000Z

I guess I just feel the performance is not always related / necessary.
Ever been to a club where the DJ is unseen? People still get down if they are into it.
Some people even close their eyes at good music.

I think it’s got to be the right arrangement of the performer, the audience, and the venue/booking. I wouldn’t put the blame for uninspired events all in one direction.

jasl · 2015-04-22T17:53:43.000Z

I love electronic(a) but traditional instruments have far more impact for me personally and I think it is ultimately down to very specific interactions.
If I play a guitar, bass or drum kit for example, there is so much more emotion and physicality to it. It’s something I truly ‘feel’ and I find it literally transports me to another dimension in terms of motor reflex, listening and cognition and witnessing someone go through that transition up on stage is what is so compelling.

The language is vastly different to tweaking boxes with knobs and buttons that generate sound though I cannot deny that in order to do either reasonably well you need a certain amount/type of talent to pull it off convincingly.

I am not insinuating one is better than the other but I do feel strongly that most ‘electronic’ live performances are lacking something visceral and emotive. Visual projections rarely make up for it and are also most often cold, digital and predictable. In fact I don’t go to watch these types of shows - I only go to listen and most often as far away from a stage as possible just to find a spot where it sounds good - it’s only about listening for me. I listen and just watch other people in a crowd as they make it more interesting.

R7 · 2015-04-22T18:37:05.000Z

I sing, play guitar and also keyboards, synths and midi programming. I would say there is always more intensity, interaction and impulsive intuition with live instruments. The way your body can express itself is just more immediate than with programmed electronics, even Elektrons. Having said that, I love programming complex synth stuff, it’s really fun to me. Like it’s science.

But I’ve always wanted a closer more intuitive way to interact with electronic gear. I have alot of fun just plugging my Bass Station II in because of all the knobs and sliders.

It will happen though, voice commands, neural interfacing, AI assistants.

4.33 · 2015-04-22T19:37:13.000Z

""jasl"":

I am not insinuating one is better than the other but I do feel strongly that most ‘electronic’ live performances are lacking something visceral and emotive.

We are kind of getting there. Went to a Moderat show and was completely blown away, just like at a Korn concert. Not to mention Prodigy. The electronic scene is blooming, but is still smaller than rock&roll, which is like 50 years ahead. I’m sure there’ll be more artists that take away breaths with new instruments and approaches.

reptilazio · 2015-04-22T20:15:50.000Z

""jasl"":

I love electronic(a) but traditional instruments have far more impact for me personally and I think it is ultimately down to very specific interactions.
If I play a guitar, bass or drum kit for example, there is so much more emotion and physicality to it. It’s something I truly ‘feel’ and I find it literally transports me to another dimension in terms of motor reflex, listening and cognition and witnessing someone go through that transition up on stage is what is so compelling.

The language is vastly different to tweaking boxes with knobs and buttons that generate sound though I cannot deny that in order to do either reasonably well you need a certain amount/type of talent to pull it off convincingly.

I am not insinuating one is better than the other but I do feel strongly that most ‘electronic’ live performances are lacking something visceral and emotive. Visual projections rarely make up for it and are also most often cold, digital and predictable. In fact I don’t go to watch these types of shows - I only go to listen and most often as far away from a stage as possible just to find a spot where it sounds good - it’s only about listening for me. I listen and just watch other people in a crowd as they make it more interesting.

I feel the same

dubathonic · 2015-04-22T20:45:39.000Z

another guy here who branched into electronics after years playing ‘traditional’ instruments.

i remember when i made that jump. i felt like i was making music with a different part of my brain. or at least with additional parts that i hadn’t engaged before. the whole science of sound sculpting with sequencers and lfos was fascinating yet cerebral. years have gone by since then and i have a lot more facility with electronics than i used to. while i don’t feel that instant physical connection right through my fingertips with the sounds i’m creating, i do sometimes feel the freedom and satisfaction you’re talking about. i probably would feel it more (and more frequently) if i were a proper keyboard player or hand drummer however.

""reptilazio"":

really interesting opinions thanks but what do you think about the connection to the audience? do you think some time in the future that normal people (not musicians) can appreciate and enjoy a electonic performance like they do a rock band with out all the visuals that electronic music use on the live shows.

huge topic, i’ve found (nearly bought an entire book on it recently), and i think it relates to what i said previously: when i feel that real-time physical connection between what my body is doing at that exact moment and the sound that is produced, i get a certain instant visceral satisfaction. it’s not that i can’t get satisfaction from composing and sequencing, but it touches me differently.

i suspect it is also part of the disconnect that can exist between audience appreciation and electronic performance. it’s one thing if you’re an engaging keys player – keith emerson is one iconic example – who hauls a huge rig onto the stage yet still does something a casual audience can look at and say, ‘ah, he’s hitting those keys and appropriately pitched tones come out, so he’s making the music’. the same might be said for live finger drumming on the rytm or an mpc’s pads, for example, as opposed to using them to play presequenced material.

now that electronic music has been around for a few decades, i doubt an electronic musician needs to perform in the ‘traditional’ sense to be accepted. but the more visual connection there is between a performer’s real-time actions and the music’s movement, the more an audience – casual or otherwise – will be able to appreciate it as a performance.

J_C_Selector · 2015-04-22T20:59:33.000Z

""reptilazio"":

do you think some time in the future that normal people (not musicians) can appreciate and enjoy a electonic performance like they do a rock band with out all the visuals that electronic music use on the live shows.

LOL, I like how you say musicians arn’t normal, I agree.
Good point, I think until electronic instruments become more mainstream, like taught in schools. Otherwise most “normal” people dont realise the skills invoved in first creating electronic music, and then performing it.
But do we really want to give away our secrets.

MK7 · 2015-04-22T21:25:49.000Z

@jeffe: good point you made with your “how different is manipulating a table of gear to playing a piano”, both are just technical interfaces.

I guess it’s just that many people have some basic background at least about how a piano works, whereas electronic instruments are still far less mainstream for “normal” people as J_C_Selector mentioned. In my opinion, Korg Electribe is an instrument to be teached to teens if they don’t like pianos and stuffs, or even additionally.

@dubathonic: you really nailed it! there needs to be some kind of visual connection between what you hear and what you see. when you’re hitting pads you should be hitting some major sounds, snares, claps, crashes, not subtle noise drones etc. I remember an early video showcasing the Octatrack before it came out, where the artist (Cenk?) turned a lot of knobs and even we in this forum were speculating about what effect this might have on the sound…

clunky · 2015-04-23T01:27:10.000Z

Hmmm think i started a thread like this a year or so ago

but never mind, better than gossip or the weather.
I’d like to have drum set, a sax and other stuff too!
I have these

yamguit1.jpg700×1395 109 KB

"Yamaha RGX-A2 electric guitar is a marvel of modern technology. The proprietary A.I.R. (Alternative Internal Resonance) construction body, "…

Does sound great and very light, not that i can play worth a shit

yamahapnosml.jpg1000×750 95.8 KB

Yamaha Electrified upright, again sounds great, need to spend more time on it though!

I learned the melodica at primary and sax/clarinet at secondary school and did a term on each group, brass, strings, percussion.
Was even in the choir for a year.
We had a piano at home but was never really interested
till i got into synths in my late teens, for me its electronic first and foremost