Electronic vs traditional instruments

MK7 · 2015-04-22T14:58:53.000Z

""reptilazio"":

really interesting opinions thanks but what do you think about the connection to the audience? do you think some time in the future that normal people (not musicians) can appreciate and enjoy a electonic performance like they do a rock band with out all the visuals that electronic music use on the live shows.

If that’s your concern, just plug in a Midi keyboard, drum pads or some type of Guitar style controller. People ‘understand’ that more than someone playing a melody on the A4’s mini keys, for instance.

There are a lot of famous electronics-based artists. The Prodigy is the first that comes into my mind because they frequently play on Rock events, but there are a lot of other examples. It’s not that people don’t appreciate electronic performances…

EDIT: of course there are different kinds of people. It will take some more decades until the standard classical concert antenders might appreciate something like techno as music at all and playing an electronic machine as playing an instrument. But then there are these concerts with washing machines, vacuum cleaners and hair dryers which eventually gets much more respect than the much much more sophisticated electronic music department, I don’t understand that. I think it’s about how the artists look like. Let’s return to the discussion about instruments, makes more sense to me

jeffe · 2015-04-22T16:28:04.000Z

I don’t always get the ‘not fun to watch’ idea - I mean, physically, how different is manipulating a table of gear to playing a piano?

Maybe the barrier to entry on electronic instruments is lower, and so performances with a lot less creativity / inspiration make it to public eye quicker.

Both excite me equally - I can strum my guitar all night or I can get locked into a half of page of code trying to make it do more with less with each iteration.

LyingDalai · 2015-04-22T16:53:06.000Z

I believe the feeling is the key.
As long as my mind is high up with the clouds of music I don’t care the medium.
A simple bin is OK !

Now for the audience, I think that you have to show some physical involvement , to show your connection with what you’re doing, so that you show them the way to join you in the clouds…

jeffe · 2015-04-22T17:14:03.000Z

I guess I just feel the performance is not always related / necessary.
Ever been to a club where the DJ is unseen? People still get down if they are into it.
Some people even close their eyes at good music.

I think it’s got to be the right arrangement of the performer, the audience, and the venue/booking. I wouldn’t put the blame for uninspired events all in one direction.

jasl · 2015-04-22T17:53:43.000Z

I love electronic(a) but traditional instruments have far more impact for me personally and I think it is ultimately down to very specific interactions.
If I play a guitar, bass or drum kit for example, there is so much more emotion and physicality to it. It’s something I truly ‘feel’ and I find it literally transports me to another dimension in terms of motor reflex, listening and cognition and witnessing someone go through that transition up on stage is what is so compelling.

The language is vastly different to tweaking boxes with knobs and buttons that generate sound though I cannot deny that in order to do either reasonably well you need a certain amount/type of talent to pull it off convincingly.

I am not insinuating one is better than the other but I do feel strongly that most ‘electronic’ live performances are lacking something visceral and emotive. Visual projections rarely make up for it and are also most often cold, digital and predictable. In fact I don’t go to watch these types of shows - I only go to listen and most often as far away from a stage as possible just to find a spot where it sounds good - it’s only about listening for me. I listen and just watch other people in a crowd as they make it more interesting.

R7 · 2015-04-22T18:37:05.000Z

I sing, play guitar and also keyboards, synths and midi programming. I would say there is always more intensity, interaction and impulsive intuition with live instruments. The way your body can express itself is just more immediate than with programmed electronics, even Elektrons. Having said that, I love programming complex synth stuff, it’s really fun to me. Like it’s science.

But I’ve always wanted a closer more intuitive way to interact with electronic gear. I have alot of fun just plugging my Bass Station II in because of all the knobs and sliders.

It will happen though, voice commands, neural interfacing, AI assistants.

4.33 · 2015-04-22T19:37:13.000Z

""jasl"":

I am not insinuating one is better than the other but I do feel strongly that most ‘electronic’ live performances are lacking something visceral and emotive.

We are kind of getting there. Went to a Moderat show and was completely blown away, just like at a Korn concert. Not to mention Prodigy. The electronic scene is blooming, but is still smaller than rock&roll, which is like 50 years ahead. I’m sure there’ll be more artists that take away breaths with new instruments and approaches.

reptilazio · 2015-04-22T20:15:50.000Z

""jasl"":

I love electronic(a) but traditional instruments have far more impact for me personally and I think it is ultimately down to very specific interactions.
If I play a guitar, bass or drum kit for example, there is so much more emotion and physicality to it. It’s something I truly ‘feel’ and I find it literally transports me to another dimension in terms of motor reflex, listening and cognition and witnessing someone go through that transition up on stage is what is so compelling.

The language is vastly different to tweaking boxes with knobs and buttons that generate sound though I cannot deny that in order to do either reasonably well you need a certain amount/type of talent to pull it off convincingly.

I am not insinuating one is better than the other but I do feel strongly that most ‘electronic’ live performances are lacking something visceral and emotive. Visual projections rarely make up for it and are also most often cold, digital and predictable. In fact I don’t go to watch these types of shows - I only go to listen and most often as far away from a stage as possible just to find a spot where it sounds good - it’s only about listening for me. I listen and just watch other people in a crowd as they make it more interesting.

I feel the same

dubathonic · 2015-04-22T20:45:39.000Z

another guy here who branched into electronics after years playing ‘traditional’ instruments.

i remember when i made that jump. i felt like i was making music with a different part of my brain. or at least with additional parts that i hadn’t engaged before. the whole science of sound sculpting with sequencers and lfos was fascinating yet cerebral. years have gone by since then and i have a lot more facility with electronics than i used to. while i don’t feel that instant physical connection right through my fingertips with the sounds i’m creating, i do sometimes feel the freedom and satisfaction you’re talking about. i probably would feel it more (and more frequently) if i were a proper keyboard player or hand drummer however.

""reptilazio"":

really interesting opinions thanks but what do you think about the connection to the audience? do you think some time in the future that normal people (not musicians) can appreciate and enjoy a electonic performance like they do a rock band with out all the visuals that electronic music use on the live shows.

huge topic, i’ve found (nearly bought an entire book on it recently), and i think it relates to what i said previously: when i feel that real-time physical connection between what my body is doing at that exact moment and the sound that is produced, i get a certain instant visceral satisfaction. it’s not that i can’t get satisfaction from composing and sequencing, but it touches me differently.

i suspect it is also part of the disconnect that can exist between audience appreciation and electronic performance. it’s one thing if you’re an engaging keys player – keith emerson is one iconic example – who hauls a huge rig onto the stage yet still does something a casual audience can look at and say, ‘ah, he’s hitting those keys and appropriately pitched tones come out, so he’s making the music’. the same might be said for live finger drumming on the rytm or an mpc’s pads, for example, as opposed to using them to play presequenced material.

now that electronic music has been around for a few decades, i doubt an electronic musician needs to perform in the ‘traditional’ sense to be accepted. but the more visual connection there is between a performer’s real-time actions and the music’s movement, the more an audience – casual or otherwise – will be able to appreciate it as a performance.

J_C_Selector · 2015-04-22T20:59:33.000Z

""reptilazio"":

do you think some time in the future that normal people (not musicians) can appreciate and enjoy a electonic performance like they do a rock band with out all the visuals that electronic music use on the live shows.

LOL, I like how you say musicians arn’t normal, I agree.
Good point, I think until electronic instruments become more mainstream, like taught in schools. Otherwise most “normal” people dont realise the skills invoved in first creating electronic music, and then performing it.
But do we really want to give away our secrets.

MK7 · 2015-04-22T21:25:49.000Z

@jeffe: good point you made with your “how different is manipulating a table of gear to playing a piano”, both are just technical interfaces.

I guess it’s just that many people have some basic background at least about how a piano works, whereas electronic instruments are still far less mainstream for “normal” people as J_C_Selector mentioned. In my opinion, Korg Electribe is an instrument to be teached to teens if they don’t like pianos and stuffs, or even additionally.

@dubathonic: you really nailed it! there needs to be some kind of visual connection between what you hear and what you see. when you’re hitting pads you should be hitting some major sounds, snares, claps, crashes, not subtle noise drones etc. I remember an early video showcasing the Octatrack before it came out, where the artist (Cenk?) turned a lot of knobs and even we in this forum were speculating about what effect this might have on the sound…

clunky · 2015-04-23T01:27:10.000Z

Hmmm think i started a thread like this a year or so ago

but never mind, better than gossip or the weather.
I’d like to have drum set, a sax and other stuff too!
I have these

yamguit1.jpg700×1395 109 KB

"Yamaha RGX-A2 electric guitar is a marvel of modern technology. The proprietary A.I.R. (Alternative Internal Resonance) construction body, "…

Does sound great and very light, not that i can play worth a shit

yamahapnosml.jpg1000×750 95.8 KB

Yamaha Electrified upright, again sounds great, need to spend more time on it though!

I learned the melodica at primary and sax/clarinet at secondary school and did a term on each group, brass, strings, percussion.
Was even in the choir for a year.
We had a piano at home but was never really interested
till i got into synths in my late teens, for me its electronic first and foremost

poonti · 2015-04-23T03:39:40.000Z

Played guitar as a teen, and piano later on, but I much prefer to play my synths and drum machines. Just way more sound sculpture possibilities for me than the traditional instruments. It’s also based on the fact that I prefer electronic music, by far, to acoustic music.

GovernorSilver · 2015-04-23T14:56:36.000Z

""reptilazio"":

really interesting opinions thanks but what do you think about the connection to the audience?

Give them a strong beat and they’re happy. Best example I’ve seen is the Container show - no visuals or anything. Just intense beat and noise. Everyone in the crowded room dancing and/or headbanging with an intensity rare for this area.

GovernorSilver · 2015-04-24T03:03:57.000Z

The only traditional instruments I play regularly are my viola and my (digital) piano. I keep up with the viola because I like exploring ways to combine it with electronic instrumentation, by sampling and processing. My bandmate once let me try plugging it into his Sonuus monophonic guitar-MIDI converter - that was worth some laughs but MIDI violin/viola is not my thing. I’m not that interested in using a traditional mindset for playing synths like Rudess, Hammer, Emerson, etc. MIDI violin/viola is just part of that traditionalist thinking. So is using looping devices in the usual manner (build a song, one loop at a time - not my thing either). I relate a lot more to what Sun Ra did with synths - he played the synth engine itself - the knobs, sliders, etc. rather than just showing off his keyboard skills.

Electronic instruments are appealing to me for escaping the traditionalist mindset. When I use a sequencer to create music instead of playing it manually, I get very different results, and I like that.

jasl · 2015-04-24T12:15:09.000Z

""GovernorSilver"":

Electronic instruments are appealing to me for escaping the traditionalist mindset. When I use a sequencer to create music instead of playing it manually, I get very different results, and I like that.

This is exactly why I love my A4 and Monomachine - The freaky shit that is hard to get with traditional instruments.
On a personal level it’s great to be able to move between the two worlds or combine them whenever I feel like it!
I am just not so convinced watching someone twiddling knobs is ever really interesting - no matter what they are doing. It might well sound great but there is the division regarding performer/audience… maybe I might feel differently in the future.

GovernorSilver · 2015-04-27T18:33:41.000Z

My friend just turned me onto this:
https://frantzloriot.bandcamp.com/releases

It’s a violist who has mastered the art of making his acoustic viola sound like a synth, purely through technique (no effects) - he can get bitcrusher sounds, tremolo pedal sounds, etc.

It’s a refreshing take on the electronic vs. acoustic instrument tension.

dubathonic · 2015-04-27T20:44:34.000Z

""GovernorSilver"":

My friend just turned me onto this:
Frantz Loriot

…and thanks for turning me on to it. damned impressive. hard to listen to in places but i’m amazed i’m listening to a viola. bet there’s some good 1-cycles in there

vos · 2015-04-28T13:28:01.000Z

""reptilazio"":

just for fun which one make you wanna play more and give you more satisfaction as a player.

to me the traditionals win guitar bass sax i play more with that than electronics some time with elektrons i feel i am not a real musician and going to a show of a guy turning knobs its not really inspiring visualy but I appreciate both

what do you think?

What’s your defenition of a musician ?
If you don’t meet up to this ( your own or imitated ) defenition your not a musician.
You can 1 change your defenition
2 stay being not a musucian
3 comform to your defenition
but what’s the poinf ???
It’s jus a word - game.
I dontgive a damn about these defenitions so that’s one problem I don’t have
Calling myself a painter dousn’t change my paintings nor the way I paint
Neather thus the opinion of others . but it’s a pleasure to be appreciated. it’s not the reason I paint sometimes.
Freedom is of the greatest importance in my vision and defining myself is only destroying that freedom.

GovernorSilver · 2015-05-11T20:06:56.000Z

""dubathonic"":

[quote=“GovernorSilver”]My friend just turned me onto this:
Frantz Loriot

…and thanks for turning me on to it. damned impressive. hard to listen to in places but i’m amazed i’m listening to a viola. bet there’s some good 1-cycles in there [/quote]
You’re welcome.

I jammed with this particular friend last Saturday and got some good clues as to how Frantz Loriot got those crazy sounds from an acoustic viola. My buddy showed me what he does on his acoustic cello - it’s prepared cello ; ust like prepared piano where you put various objects against the strings or other instrument part to change the acoustic sound. So I tried some prepared viola, eg. putting a wooden clothespin on the bottom string and immediately got this nicely “fuzzed out”, grinding tone. I never did prepared viola before so this is fun…