Sounds like what u are after is AVB/Dante stuff.
You’d probably be better off with a bunch of 16a’s and an AVB switch
I recorded a couple snippets at your request. First is Digitone, 8 bars of a full mix getting routed and rerouted by my selecting a couple different snapshots in TotalMix. Second is a 6 bar Digitone sine wave so you can really listen for any drop outs. For both samples I switched between snapshots maybe five or six times. I can’t hear (or see) any glitches or drop outs. Couldn’t even tell you where in the sample I switched snapshots 
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Thanks, man 
— so was the Digitone tracked to different audio tracks, or did it remain the same? There aren’t any fades on CVilization when the particular connection doesn’t change; it fades only when a change to the output is made.
Also, am I correct in that there are only 8 snapshots per workspace and workspace changes can’t be remotely controlled?
So what you’re talking about is a digitally controlled analog crosspoint switch.
Analog Devices (AD) the integrated circuit company makes versions of this some going into very high frequency ranges often used for video signals. To make stuff with them you’d need to make the digital control system to tell the AD device how to connect all the analog connections inside the chip, and you’d need some analog circuitry to process your analog signals so that they behave well going into and coming out of the crosspoint switch.
Here’s the data sheet for a 32 x 32 crosspoint switch chip:
They make these chips so you can string them together and make a larger system.
One nice thing about this rather than processing things digitally, is there is virtually no latency. The signal goes from A to B at analog speeds.
Not sure why these aren’t more common. They exist for signals other than audio.
Vermona showed a 16 x 16 virtual patch manager in Eurorack at the 2018 NAMM. I don’t think it ever became a real product.
There was a company Anatal, who tried to launch a 64 x 64 crosspoint switch on Kickstarter but it failed to fund. They were working on really massive connection systems too, with built in analog synths, and analog processors, that could be patched with digital commands.
The development of this sort of technology goes way back to analog telephone connection systems, Bell Telephone days.
EDIT: Fixed bad link.
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Has anyone used the boredbrain patchulator? I’m pretty interested in using it as a patch bay, but wondering what the pros and cons are.
So there are three Flock Audio models:
Patch LT — 16 X 16 — $1650 USD
Patch — 32 x 32 — $2600 USD
Patch XT — 96 X 96 — Due out in 2021 — around $10,000 USD
Don’t want to hijack the thread too much, but yes, the different snapshots were routing the DN to two different physical outputs, which were then sent to the a/b and c/d inputs of an Octatrack, where it was then sent back via the OT master out, to a input on the patch bay, normalled to an input on the RME, and recorded in Ableton. I think you’re right that there are only 8 snapshots per workspace. Unfortunately I don’t know anything about remote control of workspaces. I haven’t delved in that far.
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Those Flock ones to me have the same draw back as things like the motu xt midi patch bay. Great to have software control of routing presets and all that, but I’d much prefer a button matrix on the front panel… hold button for input 1, press button for outputs 2, 3, and 4 or whatever, and patch made. Like, if you’re going to drop 2500+ on a patch bay, what’s another 4-500 for a button matrix and a preset save button on the front.
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I’d love to see what the actual application for a 96 x 96 configurable connection unit would be. To see what people actually are doing with that. Why is that system $9,500 better than a (more) static patch bay configuration ?
Having multiple synths, hooked to multiple effects, and perhaps on the fly changing connections through to a mixer. Add perhaps multiple control paths between equipment. I could see 32 x 32 maybe. Or the use for three 32 x 32 systems. My vision is cloudy at 96 x 96, fully being able to go any to any.
Is this for live use ? That brings up a question for me then, how clean are the configuration switchings. The specs for the Analog Devices chips have pretty fast switching times. Could you actually use patch switches, live in performance ?
Then again think about what that might mean if you had a massive wall sized modular system. I suppose you could eat through 96 virtual connections, and be able to presave many complicated patches and be able switch between them at the push of a button.
How about a utility that would let you model a patch connection on a VCV (or such like) simulation of your hardware, and than with the push of a button, blam, the connections get made on the physical hardware.
Most of this is over my head, but I suppose in a situation where you want to keep all your patching in the analogue domain (rather than increase your available channels to a digital mixer or daw - which in some cases is probably cheaper) as well as having recallability, it’s easy to see in a commercial setting that it would eventually pay for itself in time saved.
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That makes sense.
But then why have the system square ? It doesn’t have to be. Wouldn’t a 96 x 32 or some such make more sense for that application ? The second number, the output number, could match the inputs on your mixer. That would cost an awful lot less.
Hinton Instruments could probably build you the patch bay/matrix mixer of your dreams if you have the money to spend.
http://www.hinton-instruments.co.uk/paserv/
and things like the higher end yamaha digital mixers basically are digital routing devices with i/o and summing in multiple ways simultaneously.
RME interface + total mix and/or something like plogue bidule or max/msp you can route/sum/matrix mix anything
there’ sprobably exists something for live sound applications w/digital front of house mixers that also does complex routing.
Are the off the shelf switching chips symmetrical for ins ands outs? In which case are you just paying for the extra circuitry, wiring and dsubs?
Personally, I’d like to see a souped up version of my pedal board controller (not necessarily in pedal format though). I assume it uses the same / similar technology as it lets you change the loop order per preset. But it also has pretty close to full midi implementation so you can change synth and fx presets and signal routing per preset. I’m very slowly setting it up to use the one pedal board for bass, guitar, synths and daw outboard fx. It’s just tinkering for tinkering sake though… haha
I got one of the Flock 32x32 systems a few months ago. Honestly, it’s been a real game changer for me. We had 6 96x96 patchbays for our setup (XDesk, xpanda, and a bunch of outboard and 500 series gear) which is pretty intimidating for me as I am visually challenged. The Flock takes care of all my mastering gear and converters and integrates them with the stereo inserts on the mixer. While it hasn’t completely eliminated patching for the rest of the gear during mixdowns, it’s a lot more manageable now. I could totally see the utility of the 96x96 units, but the price is insane.
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The chips come both symmetric and non-symmetric in both directions. But it wouldn’t matter for larger arrangements, it’s how you combine multiple crosspoint switch chips that determines the final configuration —you can combine them in a manner of speaking either horizontally or vertically, so fewer chips would get used and less expense would be involved in a version with more inputs than outputs. Not only that but the analog processing electronics, that i mentioned before, that you put at the input and output isn’t without expense and is part of the final cost.
I’d have to push more detailed designs, and price parts, to get a real cost comparison, but it definitely would be cheaper if you had a requirement with only more inputs than outputs… (A more detailed design might be fun to do, i’ve got some other fun ideas that i’m wondering about.)
Certainly that’s one thing to do when you can move connections around electronically rather than making physical plug changes. The key is to do it inexpensively. With a simple enough setup you don’t need to run too deep with cross connections to accomplish that sort of thing. Again it would be fun to look at application specifics, and to consider solutions that already exist.
Agreed on the price. Interesting to hear your real world experience ! For you already having one 32 x 32 unit, there could be real utility for you with a second of the same, rather than the Patch XT.
The capability of a 96 x 96 over three 32 x 32 would be having the complete any to any connections. It would seem to me most applications wouldn’t require that — most applications would have groups that interconnect, but wouldn’t have many interconnectIons between those groups, so you could break down a layout between two or three 32 x 32 systems, with maybe a signal or two that you do with a connection between these systems.
That three 32 x 32 costs less than a 96 x 96 seems odd to me, it’s the same total number of connections externally. To be fair the final price of the 96 x 96 has not been set by Flock. It’s also unfair (without me pushing the engineering further) for me to say the pricing of all these seems high.
I would like to know what Vermona would have charged for their little Eurorack version. They also showed some progress into the UI and control issues with these sorts of reconnection systems. That Vermona system would probably have fit your requirements nicely, Stone262.
ADDED: BTW, really simple reconnection systems can be done with multiplexer demultiplexer combinations. There are Eurorack modules specific for that usually called multiplexers and switches. It’s when it gets more complicated that crosspoint switches become useful, and less expensive.
this looks great. the unlimited MULT options is the game changer hear. all the sends one could need.
could hook up all the gear w/o a mixer and use a DAW for monitoring/recording.
that’s some pretty interesting possibilities for streamlining work flow. would require building up a list of saved patch settings i guess and at first it might not be quicker than using a mixer and standard patch bay. but seems really a streamlined way to work for some people.
The mult possibilities are so good. It’s a bit fiddly in the UI because I’ve only connected stereo gear to it and multing requires you to go into the set up and break the stereo associations so the you get the L and R signal from your list of analog processors, but I’m almost positive they will rework that in the next firmware to be more immediate without the work around.
I have thought about how a 3x 32x32 system would work and it would be good for our set up, could eliminate 90% of the patching we do. But there would be scenarios where you could run out of interconnect paths between the systems. Not sure if the compromises are worth the price difference between the 96x96 or the 3x 32x32
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My digital mixer has 64x fader channels of audio in/out and 80 channels total including the 4x onboard effects channels.
It has 6x stereo mix sends, 8x mono mix sends and 4x stereo matrix sends which I use for external effects, sending to samplers, recording, sending to my modular etc etc . Each send can be configured to go to multiple destinations/outputs at once. Each channel can also have insert effect added , you just need to configure the output and the return channels in the channel setup page. You can configure each of the 4 layers of 24 faders to be whatever you want, either a input fader, output fader, VCA, effects, whatever.
I have for eg a delay in stereo 1, a reverb in stereo 2, distortion in stereo 3. I can route any synth or multiple synths into the reverb then route the reverb into the distortion then into the delay and then back to the reverb… and on and on to whatever effects you want.
It’s basically a large fully modular patchbay/mixer/router.
It takes a while to set it up correctly. Once done it’s a case of pressing a button and raising the corresponding fader(s) to whatever you want sending to it. Each channel has a dbx comp/gate/eq/hpf. Mixer also has 4x Lexicon MX300 effects units in.
I don’t know how people manage with analogue consoles.
Mixer is Si Impact and I have a Compact Stagebox to increase the inputs, along with extra MADI and AES cards fitted.
If you want to know how it works I can do you a quick demo vid showing you how easy it is.
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Tell me / us all about it! That’s like it should be, right? I really dislike all those super expensive mixers with maybe max 3 send/returns – I wanna connect and route everything to everything!
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