Digitakt as brain: program change sending

manu_controvento · 2024-02-05T15:01:34.985Z

Hi everyone, I hope someone can help me…
I want to use the digitakt as a brain in my system. It will provide songs arrangement and some samples. I want it to be midi-connected to a couple of other devices in order to trigger some drums and bass sounds. The purpose of this setup is having some drums and bass sounds common to all the set list.
I tried with model:samples but I didn’t achieve it…
I prepared 4 patterns on the m:s (one with acoustic drum hits, one with r&b sounds… etc). I set up digitakt midi tracks channels in order to trigger the proper track on the m:s. I also set up the same program change channel on both devices.
My aim is, in the first “row” of the song in the digitakt song structure, to send a program change to the m:s which will select the proper m:s pattern (e.g. let’s say that in this song I need the vinyl drum sounds, the first row will select the pattern which hosts the vinyl drum sounds)
and then from the second row till the end there will be the song arrangement.
I tried and tried but I couldn’t do it. Let’s say I need to select the 4° pattern of the second bank on m:s (so bank B). Second bank, 4° pattern = pattern #20. Back to the digitakt, in the first row I select a pattern which has on a midi track the program change (encoder “D”) set to the value of 20 and the midi channel the same of the model:samples. Then in the sequencer I enable the first note. It should send a program change to the m:s and then move on to next song step.
Well, when starting the song, the program change comes to the m:s but it’s the wrong one… it seems not to consider the “20” value which I set, sending instead the number of the digitakt pattern. Or maybe, prg 20 is triggered but the prg value is immediately changed to the song pattern number. So if digitakt pattern is (or switches to…) A6, the A6 pattern will be triggered on m:s as well.
I’m quite sure it’s not impossible to manage things as I want, but an afternoon of attempts wasn’t enough…
Please help me!!
Have a nice day everyone
Manu

sezare56 · 2024-02-05T19:09:39.280Z

Digitakt as brain ? Change your Program !

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Sorry.
So more seriously, apparently you send Program Changes from MIDI > SYNC and from midi tracks. You have to choose between these 2 possibilities, you can’t use both at the same time.

If you want same pattern numbers : Sync page.
It is made for that, Program Changes are sent just before pattern change. Caveats : no freedom to choose patterns.

You can also send PChanges from midi tracks (whatever Sync page settings are, they can be disabled). Freedom to choose PCs, but they are sent at the beginning of the pattern, so theoretically 1 cycle later with another Elektron.
These PCs are usually used for patch changes on synth or any sound generators.

To control MS pattern changes I’d rather use Sync page, because it is send just before pattern change, not after like with midi track PCs, implying a cycle later.

Nothing ideal, a PC map would be great for each project.

manu_controvento · 2024-02-06T07:45:05.028Z

Hello @sezare56 and thanks a lot for your answer.
Well, the choice of having the digitakt as brain in my setup is driven by a bunch of must-have such as:

it can save songs
it has midi tracks to control other devices
is has some nice Fx to put on some samples

Then I’ll rely on a futher sampler for drums and other shared sounds between songs, and another sampler or synth for bass and some chords. My aim is to provide a electronic background for a small live ensemble based on folk instruments such as bagpipes, violin, maybe harp… stuff like that. I also own a Sonicware SmplTrek which is maybe even more flexible on track and songs management and it’s the other candidate for being the brain of the whole system. I’d prefer the Digitakt since it’s more handy for live sessions and I prefer its effects.

So, coming back to the topic, according to what you say I should disable the pattern synced program change, and maybe make the 1st pattern of the song roll 2 times, since one time it’s not enough for the connected device to receive/apply the program change?

This would not be a problem to me. I’ll try. I’ll let you know.
Thanks, bye!

sezare56 · 2024-02-06T09:03:06.415Z

manu_controvento:

small live ensemble based on folk instruments such as bagpipes, violin, maybe harp…

Interesting! Where do you live ?
I live in Britanny, so it is common to hear folk music with bagpipes, violon and harps…

So, do you want to use MS sequences ? If you just want sound sets from it, it shouldn’t be a problem to use midi tracks PCs to control MS pattern changes if stopped…

Do you use slices? It can add a great variety of sounds on DT.
On MS you may be able to do some with start values sent from DT with CCs, but it would be convenient. I recently received a 1010 Tangerine which seems much better for that purpose (play a great variety of stereo sounds, even very long ones, multisampling, slices, loops…)
1010 Blackbox do the same.

My brain is an Octatrack ;).

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manu_controvento · 2024-02-06T11:22:24.610Z

Hi @sezare56 I live in northern Italy. I started as a bass player and songwriter in some reggae and punk bands and I listened to a lot of dub stuff as well; then I joined a kind of folk / ancient instruments revival scene; now a lot of years went by and I’d like to do something new joining the two things together

At now I’d use the models:samples or another sampler mainly to provide samples for drums, to be triggered by the digitakt midi tracks. So I’d keep a bunch of m:s patterns which would act as different “drum kits” and this is the reason I’d like to select them by Program change from my digitakt song.
But I don’t dislike the idea of using the m:s sequencer as well. Sometimes some song could start with the usual drum sounds driven from midi tracks, but since the midi transport is active, the sequencer on the m:s is running too and I could also decide to add in real time some hits or loops on the m:s sequencer just improvising.
I usually don’t use slices that much, but as I told my aim is to provide a common ground for all songs to start from, then depending on the single arrangement I can decide to use different things on different songs

manu_controvento · 2024-02-06T13:37:37.049Z

nothing done… I think I will have to abandon the idea of selecting external patterns via midi track program change… I triend and tried every combination of enabling, disabling… It doesn’t work. Sometimes the proper m:s pattern in selected, sometimes not… Of course I can go on changing it manually but I expected it to be working…
Maybe Iìll try with SmplTrek as brain instead of the DT

sezare56 · 2024-02-06T13:42:50.130Z

I’d be interested to hear your former stuff and current project…

Btw concerning projects, why don’t you keep you “drum kits” patterns in one place (patterns 1-4 or 124-128) then copy/paste them when you need them ? That what you’d simply use DT SYNC page and you’d be able to add MS sequences…
(MS also have projects isn’t it ?)

manu_controvento · 2024-02-06T15:40:01.515Z

Hi @sezare56, yes, I already considered the option of having some “template” projects / drum kits and copy-paste them in the places where I need them. But the purpose of this setup was not having “repetitions” of this kind. Imagine the full set onstage with other musicians and the typical usual mess … At soundcheck time or even worse during the show, you have to lower the kick volume because it’s too loud… could you imagine me going through 20 or 30 patterns to lower the volume in all of these?!? That’s why I need a separate device for drums (and then it’s ok having to handle 2 or 3 or 4 drum kits…) and another one for bass lines (at least)

sezare56 · 2024-02-06T21:36:22.631Z

manu_controvento:

could you imagine me going through 20 or 30 patterns to lower the volume in all of these?!?

No.

manu_controvento · 2024-02-07T08:15:02.278Z

In the end my solution could be to manually handle the drum kits (disable pattern sync via program change and select the m:s pattern = drum kit when I want to change it). Or maybe also use the SmplTrek instead of the Digitakt. That’s ok, it’s not a big problem. I’m just a little disappointed and incredulous that with all those parameters available on the Src page of the MIDI tracks (and which I typically will never need to use) when I actually need them I can’t get the result I expected.
About my previous music projects there’s not so much things on the web at the moment. I played in a lot of bands in the past but a lot of years have passed and a lot of songs were on websites such as MySpace which was reset some years ago. If curious you can find a bunch of videos on youtube of a folk/rock band called “Radìs” where I played bagpipes and bouzouki and a band called “armesqual” where I was the bass player and I managed the keyboard and sampler as well.
I also uploaded a couple of more recent “solo” electronic albums at Stream fratello Manu | Listen to music albums online for free on SoundCloud under the nickname fratello Manu. They’re called “Delirandom” and “another melancholic summer”. These productions also coincided with the final abandonment of windows/mac systems in favor of just using Linux and open source software, even to make music
thanks for your answers, I’ll let you know if I will win or lose against the Digitakt

Sternenlicht · 2024-02-07T08:32:15.531Z

I dont understand the part with lowering all the samples volume, when digitakt can have a audio track where you lower the volume, and this track always plays the kick? Or put a mixer in front of the samplers?

protrusion · 2024-02-07T16:01:52.301Z

manu_controvento:

I’m just a little disappointed and incredulous that with all those parameters available on the Src page of the MIDI tracks (and which I typically will never need to use) when I actually need them I can’t get the result I expected.

I was experiencing this also when playing around with a project a couple of days ago. I was trying to switch between programs 2 and 3 on a synth being controlled by the Digitakt. One DT pattern had the MIDI track PC field set to 2, and another pattern had the MIDI track PC field set to 3, but the external synth never changed. I tried doing double-stop before hitting play, etc., but couldn’t get it working and moved on to other things.

bibenu · 2024-02-07T19:54:28.783Z

protrusion:

I was trying to switch between programs 2 and 3 on a synth being controlled by the Digitakt. One DT pattern had the MIDI track PC field set to 2, and another pattern had the MIDI track PC field set to 3, but the external synth never changed.

That really puts me off upgrading from M:S to DT … are there any known workarounds for this, anyone ?

sezare56 · 2024-02-07T20:34:58.327Z

bibenu:

there any known workarounds for this, anyone ?

Program Changes do work.
You can’t send the same PC consecutively, that’s the only (main?) problem. Workaround is to send a different one before resending a PC.

I can see many reasons to upgrade !

bibenu · 2024-02-07T20:45:07.329Z

sezare56:

I can see many reasons to upgrade !

Badly expressed on my part. It’s not so much if I upgrade, it’s more: do I choose Digitakt or Deluge.

manu_controvento · 2024-02-09T10:51:40.818Z

@sezare56 I couldn’t believe it. In the end I did it. The problem was in fact here:

You can’t send the same PC consecutively, that’s the only (main?) problem. Workaround is to send a different one before resending a PC

now it’s all almost working… Some details are still a bit cumbersome to be managed anyway, but at least I’m going to do what I was planning (and the reason I bought the Digitakt. I was already considering selling it!)

Elektron must definitively consider to provide a detailed midi handbook!

thanks again

sezare56 · 2024-02-09T13:56:49.044Z

manu_controvento:

I couldn’t believe it. In the end I did it

……