Dance Music 101

Techno_Mystic · 2015-03-08T14:18:51.000Z

""Housecliche"":

Think we’ve done Acid to death - anyone brave enough to tackle the Jungle/DnB/2-step lineage for the OP? Good luck with that

I read or heard recently that the whole Jungle and DnB genre is based on the “Amen Break”. Google that and you get plenty of hits. Even The Economist gets in on the act.

There’s even a fund to help the Winstons get some payment for it (the drummer is dead now unfortunately).

Techno_Mystic · 2015-03-08T14:47:44.000Z

""rozzbud"":

being too “young”, were the balearic, acid and techno identified scenes at the time? I have this idealized vision of original rave as a holistic club cultural shift. Like sexual liberation touched every class/gender/sexuality.

I lived in a quiet town and experienced it from a distance through the media really, but I remember it fondly. It just broke all the rules. Records got to number one in the charts without ever being played on the radio. And records like Pump up the Volume by M|A|R|R|S (which also got to number one in the UK) not only had no discernible melody, but also used bits nicked from other people’s records extensively. I loved how in your face it was.

When you went to a nightclub in 1986, the DJ would behave like a radio DJ, taking requests and talking between records. By 1988 he would be silent all night and only play the records he wanted to.

By 1990 it had got all spiritual, with bands like The Beloved, Shamen and Enigma emerging. They used religious themes and hippy vibes.

Then the corporates go into it, and “going clubbing” became a pastime, and it’s all a bit tired nowadays really.

rozzbud · 2015-03-08T20:55:46.000Z

would be good to have german elektronauts too talking about the emergence of clubs, techno and subgenres.

spike_spykstra · 2015-03-09T00:05:59.000Z

Of course, where would we be without the german influence?

This thread is really playing on my mind.
In the terms of, what constitutes dance music?
Should this be another thread?
Avantronica, i think layed out that this should be about the determining attributes that define subgenres. Thats cool but,
Where did it all begin?
Was it the evolution from disco? I still love disco and funk. Just coolness through and through.
People will probably shout me down but, in my mind, it all crossed over with georgio moroder when he did “i feel love”.
Was this the defining moment of the birth of the acid bassline? - obviously no 303.
Phuture is credited with that honour and on one hand i agree.

Is dance music, in our time, defined by the use of machines?
Is that what its all about?
When i was young, i used to go out to “discos” and they played rock, and people danced.
This however was NOT dance music (i hated it).

If you watch old clips of “soul train” they were dancing their arses off, yet, not dance music.

There are a million thoughts running through my head about this.
I think im confusing myself…
I do that sometimes…

Anyway, back to our usual program…

Dnb born from house to breakbeat house to jungle to drum and bass to techstep, darkstep to dubstep. Am i right?

rozzbud · 2015-03-09T01:08:24.000Z

disco is one branch but you also have the krautrock/kraftwerk/throbbing gristle/suicide/cabaret voltaire/EBM/industrial techno etc…lineage. (yeah forgot the now legendary surgeon+ladygaga incident)

Autechre were influenced by rave sounds but also Coil and hiphop.

rozzbud · 2015-03-09T01:29:46.000Z

Where did it all begin?
Was it the evolution from disco? I still love disco and funk.

maybe it’s a wrong reasoning, the specificity of dance music, is the “dance” part. And dance has to do with the body which means identity and politics.

As on other sites&forums, we’re very gear, home listening centric but the center of recent music evolutions seems to be the “dancer” more than the “music”: teens, squatters, drug users, queers, racial minorities, unemployement etc…

I mean Detroit/Manchester, hiphop, the collapse of the wall in Germany. All the evolutions are as much ruptures, accidents as they’re artistic apropriations.

avantronica · 2015-03-09T03:44:35.000Z

It’s perhaps obvious retrospectively that genres is something of a grey atea, ironically i seem to have followed artists who sought to fuse styles (but not talking about the genre ‘fusion’) The other thing is that the great BBC docs on movements like disco usually reveal how acts try to crossover and follow the money and there may be on the other hand acts like the clash who evolve with the passing of the peak punk era, so it’s shifting sands as a topic. That being said i was crestfallen to see housecliche suggest the differences could be quite subtle. I’m kinda hoping for forks, knives and spoons…and maybe teaspoons and butter knives and carving knives etc. nice and easy to file away and spot if described. It may well be the subtleties which have led to my outsider confusion. I think electro may be easier to pigeonhole if anyone cares to. But i’m happy that the thread takes its own shape, be a shame if it didn’t touch on the main genres and as someone mentioned, acid’s been done now, it’s not for me and it’s clearish what defines it, esp with housecliche’s comments

Great input folks

poonti · 2015-03-09T04:32:22.000Z

New Order’s Blue Monday had some influence, I would think. Kind of a proto-techno major hit. I think that song could easily move some dance floors today.

Housecliche · 2015-03-09T05:39:07.000Z

You could probably distinguish the major dance genres by starting with the drums and sound selection - character of the hits, samples v synthesis, does it usually swing, use of vocals, etc

This would get you a very broad starting point for distinguishing say house, from deep house, and techno, dub techno, jungle, d’nb, and further sub genres, but from then on in you have to be subtle and think about tone and feel.

For example - I recently read a comment on a youtube video of a techno set where some clown tried to say that it wasn’t techno because there was snares/claps on the 2’s and 4’s - LMFAO - he said it must be house as techno didnt emphasise the 2’s and 4’s like that and only used snares/claps like ‘stabs’ - I mean ridiculous or what?

That’s why, in the final analysis you gotta just feel for the vibe - it’s supposed to be art right?

Avantronica - there’s a book called The Dance Music Manual by Rick Snoman that you might find useful - it’s not gonna help you with feel but it does break down some of the major genres at a basic technical level.

darenager · 2015-03-09T11:55:53.000Z

@Housecliche - Agreed a lot of non 303 stuff back then was classified as acid, I was just meaning to say that nowadays acid is considered to be 303/or other squelchy synth centric, which I think for the most part is clearer/more accurate, for example a lot of people still consider this as acid house, but I’d say it was more sample based house.Even though back in the 80’s I’d have said it was acid.

But my point about the media mis-labelling still stands I think, like Black Box was never really called acid by DJ’s, it was italo house, but to the likes of TOTP it was all acid.

Hah, I’m starting to sound like a right purist/nit picker, but I’m just trying to clear up what I meant before

avantronica · 2015-03-09T13:39:42.000Z

okay, i’ll probably never get this as i’ll not immerse myself enough to get a feel for the subtleties or even broad brush differences, and looking through my vaults there’s not so much that isn’t too tricky to file. I’ve enjoyed. e.g. (to pick one) Innerzone Orchestra from day one and continue to, however, there’s a real smorgasbord of styles on the Programmed album, and i’m a bit more drawn to the Miles type stuff, or this stuff not to be categorised(i guess) on this thread

whereas, this seems like it might be house ? to me, though it doesn’t tie up too easily (for me) with the proto-house links posted earlier, is it the piano stabs !

otoh, this one i saw labelled as ambient house, wtf, no clue why tbh, i like it anyhows, the whole album is great

however, i’d guess this was techno (or variety of)

though i hear echoes of this memorable teenage classic whose genre is NOTA presumably, or not something-ambient, despite their other output, but not the Eno ambient !

maybe this is all too subjective anyway, within certain bandwidth

anyway, apart from a general longer term awareness of my lack of clarity in boxing some of this stuff, and the recent thread on drones, it was an awareness whilst working on the ScienceLab that i was working from scratch 0based on my own aesthetics and influences) and it wasn’t easy to use a ‘template’ to get going or to structure the sketches, i basically let the sound lead the way - when i started hearing the output i was struck that they did all seem to sound like they could be in genres or that influences were more transparent, although i didn’t like lots of it, that’s not a slight, i especially dislike the whole wubwub thing/cliche - basically, after i aborted, due to not having the time to ‘find’ my magic, it dawned on me that the ‘genre’ thing and (therefore) lack of chops in structuring a particular type of arrangement was an obstacle for me, it just made ‘finding’ direction that bit more vague - i guess i wondered then, if there are programmatic tropes that i might have learned along the way to help inject groove e.g.
having said that, i’d (back in the guitar days) sooner retune the guitar to force me to find new material

i’ll revisit the text links from time to time, thanks for the pointers peeps, still plenty of gaps tho

Tornfrayed · 2015-03-09T14:14:00.000Z

""avantronica"":

okay, i’ll probably never get this as i’ll not immerse myself enough to get a feel for the subtleties or even broad brush differences, and looking through my vaults there’s not so much that isn’t too tricky to file. I’ve enjoyed. e.g. (to pick one) Innerzone Orchestra from day one and continue to, however, there’s a real smorgasbord of styles on the Programmed album, and i’m a bit more drawn to the Miles type stuff, or this stuff not to be categorised(i guess) on this thread

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjTM9s0G5NE&list=PLHH9wEYGRZUomE5fYTDAP30t3ZwvOvB6T&index=41

whereas, this seems like it might be house ? to me, though it doesn’t tie up too easily (for me) with the proto-house links posted earlier, is it the piano stabs !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jJ16TimRNc

otoh, this one i saw labelled as ambient house, wtf, no clue why tbh, i like it anyhows, the whole album is great

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IBlJOWaJdA

however, i’d guess this was techno (or variety of)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOUAEhI8a_A&list=PLHH9wEYGRZUomE5fYTDAP30t3ZwvOvB6T&index=55

though i hear echoes of this memorable teenage classic whose genre is NOTA presumably, or not something-ambient, despite their other output, but not the Eno ambient !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sFK0-lcjGU

maybe this is all too subjective anyway, within certain bandwidth

anyway, apart from a general longer term awareness of my lack of clarity in boxing some of this stuff, and the recent thread on drones, it was an awareness whilst working on the ScienceLab that i was working from scratch 0based on my own aesthetics and influences) and it wasn’t easy to use a ‘template’ to get going or to structure the sketches, i basically let the sound lead the way - when i started hearing the output i was struck that they did all seem to sound like they could be in genres or that influences were more transparent, although i didn’t like lots of it, that’s not a slight, i especially dislike the whole wubwub thing/cliche - basically, after i aborted, due to not having the time to ‘find’ my magic, it dawned on me that the ‘genre’ thing and (therefore) lack of chops in structuring a particular type of arrangement was an obstacle for me, it just made ‘finding’ direction that bit more vague - i guess i wondered then, if there are programmatic tropes that i might have learned along the way to help inject groove e.g.
having said that, i’d (back in the guitar days) sooner retune the guitar to force me to find new material

i’ll revisit the text links from time to time, thanks for the pointers peeps, still plenty of gaps tho

OMFG! I LOVE that LP!!! I have it on constant rotation!! ESSENTIAL Listening!!! Fransisco Cora on the drums fits in just perfectly!!

Infected · 2015-03-12T19:53:04.000Z

There’s a documentary called modulations that attempts to break down the history and some of the various genres of electronic music… I was there back in '88, too the documentary is pretty accurate as far as I remember And what do you know, it’s on yootoob.

.

avantronica · 2015-03-12T22:27:38.000Z

""Infected"":

There’s a documentary called modulations that attempts to break down the history and some of the various genres of electronic music… I was there back in '88, too the documentary is pretty accurate as far as I remember And what do you know, it’s on yootoob.

http://youtu.be/cveYosINMQM

.

Cheers, i’m pretty confident i saw that film, but i definitely have the book. Doh ! Read that soon. Thanks for the link, will try it tomorrow

Infected · 2015-03-12T23:30:40.000Z

Well, my apologies for not vetting that link before I posted it… Apparently, the sound has been secured due to copyright issues.

Maybe you can get it at your local video tape rental shop. And remember, taping music is not a crime Copyright infringement is you best entertainment value!

It is kinda funny that you can watch a documentary about music without any sound. Very post-modern.

dcsux · 2015-03-13T09:38:34.000Z

Can also recommend this book so far (I’m still working my way through it).

Unlocking the Groove by Mark Butler.
http://www.iupress.indiana.edu/product_info.php?products_id=22615

It gets pretty technical for someone without any music theory background (like me), but it breaks down what defines many of the original genres, and key tracks/rhythmical passages on a structural level.

And don’t be put off by the use of the acronym EDM! He is referring to all genres of dance music made on electronic machines, not the neon, commercialised plague that has consumed America of late.

avantronica · 2015-03-13T11:51:00.000Z

""Infected"":

Well, my apologies for not vetting that link before I posted it… Apparently, the sound has been secured due to copyright issues.

Maybe you can get it at your local video tape rental shop. And remember, taping music is not a crime Copyright infringement is you best entertainment value!

It is kinda funny that you can watch a documentary about music without any sound. Very post-modern.

thanks all for pointers and refs etc - that youtube link is good on vimeo for the curious fwiw, not condoning it, but it’s there to research !

rozzbud · 2015-03-13T12:09:22.000Z

“Energy Flash: A Journey Through Rave Music and Dance Culture” by Simon Reynolds. Is it good?

bambrose · 2015-03-13T12:53:56.000Z

http://www.gridface.com
This is a good site for getting a primer into the roots of house… from which a lot of other genres including acid then developed.
NY Disco and Italo Disco helped provide influence to early house music like Z-Factor, Chip E, Sharivari & Jesse Saunders which was then echoed by the grittier acid in Chicago emerging about 5 years later.

I’m particularly interested in this era of music. 1982 seems to me to be the year when a lot of genre defining, mould breaking records were made which provided the bedrock for the next 5 or so years of genuine musical innovation. By the late eighties the ‘genres’ you’re seeking had already started to become clearly defined as formulas.
Every genre has classic tracks, but it’s often the early releases that have a level of energy and experimentation which gets dulled over time in my opinion.

Techno and electro arguably both started with Cybotron’s early releases as well as Planet Rock. Most of the techno pioneers started creating what they considered to be house music, but which then morphed into an entirely new genre. That’s my understanding anyway.

avantronica · 2015-03-13T15:24:04.000Z

""rozzbud"":

“Energy Flash: A Journey Through Rave Music and Dance Culture” by Simon Reynolds. Is it good?

i’d expect so, he’s an excellent & authoritative author/researcher, but whether he’s writing as an expert or not, who knows !