Controlling performance (mostly mutes)

TheWhistler · 2022-07-19T16:38:39.769Z

Hello, me again. Octa noob trying to set up stems for a live performance.
I got my first song (already released studio recording) ready on the octatrack. Everything fine so far.
I set my parts up via patterns that are hooked toghether with the arranger.
All my parts are evolving and have a “full state” which I want to reveal over time or even back off at times.

First I thought, ok, I will do this with mutes. But mutes are not pattern specific.
So I tried to use the mutes in the arranger, but these mutes are not muting the audio (why not atually? ) but supressing the trigger.

As an example. I have a riser that starts after two bars in a four bar pattern while the kick shall mute only in bar 4.
This is (at least for me) a bit complicated to setup with scenes because I have to go back and forth and even have to change the scene inside the pattern.

Maybe someone understands me and probably has a good idea.
I want to perform and not programm this. That is what I bought the octa for.

Thank´s for an input in advance.

Whistler

trackerjack · 2022-07-19T16:44:49.262Z

TheWhistler:

I want to perform and not programm this.

There’s your answer, kinda. Just use Quick Mutes?

Octagonist · 2022-07-19T16:49:53.457Z

TheWhistler:

As an example. I have a riser that starts after two bars in a four bar pattern while the kick shall mute only in bar 4.

It seems, to me, like a waste of energy trying to “play” this. Much better would be to programme it and free yourself up for parameter changes, pattern queuing/setting chains, performing scenes with the x-fader. Get the sequencer to sequence, so you don’t have to.

TheWhistler · 2022-07-19T16:50:10.109Z

trackerjack:

There’s your answer, kinda. Just use Quick Mutes?

Ah, you´re right. I did not think of them.
Have not tried yet. Maybe this ist the solution.
Quick mutes can not prepared in any way, right?

TheWhistler · 2022-07-19T16:53:45.425Z

Octagonist:

It seems, to me, like a waste of energy trying to “play” this. Much better would be to programme it and free yourself up for parameter changes, pattern queuing, performing scenes with the x-fader. Get the sequencer to sequence, so you don’t have to.

I am a bit trapped in the project I am working on.
I play in a three piece band which existed and composed before I got in.
So am transitioning from a producer to a band member.
The stems are what they are. There are not so much parameters to twiddle with.
One of the few things I can do atm is playing with the patterns.
Also, I think this is good excercise to accomodate with the octa.

In the end it might be just good old rehearsing, excercising…

trackerjack · 2022-07-19T16:55:43.792Z

They’re the same (track) mutes but using the trigger keys for faster access. (FUNC+DOWN)

I agree with @Octagonist here, for what you’re trying to do, programming in advance seems to make more sense.

Octagonist · 2022-07-19T16:55:54.056Z

TheWhistler:

The stems are what they are.

So the stems have sound in places where you don’t always want sound, and you want to be able to improvise the arrangement a bit to jam with the band?

trackerjack · 2022-07-19T16:59:10.078Z

Use your Slices…

natehorn · 2022-07-19T17:02:29.183Z

TheWhistler:

First I thought, ok, I will do this with mutes. But mutes are not pattern specific.
So I tried to use the mutes in the arranger, but these mutes are not muting the audio (why not atually? ) but supressing the trigger.

As an example. I have a riser that starts after two bars in a four bar pattern while the kick shall mute only in bar 4.

You’re ‘muting’ the sequencer, not the track as you’ve identified, this is by design and just part of the workflow.

Maybe I’m misunderstanding but in your example you could use a 4 bar kick pattern and simply not have triggers on the last bar. You can also use microtiming and probability to kind of hack ‘Play this 3 times but not the 4th time’.

TheWhistler · 2022-07-19T19:34:13.876Z

Octagonist:

So the stems have sound in places where you don’t always want sound, and you want to be able to improvise the arrangement a bit to jam with the band?

Yes, that’s what it is

TheWhistler · 2022-07-19T19:36:37.451Z

natehorn:

Maybe I’m misunderstanding but in your example you could use a 4 bar kick pattern and simply not have triggers on the last bar. You can also use microtiming and probability to kind of hack ‘Play this 3 times but not the 4th time’.

The patterns are “fixed” just need a way to mute them while using the arranger. But maybe this is the fault. Should I perform without the arranger?

TheWhistler · 2022-07-19T19:38:29.426Z

trackerjack:

agree with @Octagonist here, for what you’re trying to do, programming in advance seems to make more sense.

I don’t want to do that, but maybe you will be proving me wrong.

Octagonist · 2022-07-19T19:57:24.618Z

TheWhistler:

Yes, that’s what it is

You could have fun with scenes. I’m fairly sure that if a scene doesn’t define new values, then they remain as you transition. So you could set up a scene to quieten the pad, another to quieten the kicks. Start with no scene, crossfade to the one that kills/brings in the riser, then cross to the one which kills the kicks… then back to “no scene”.

This way, you introduce some element of performance variability, and risk of mistakes. Which is fun

TheWhistler · 2022-07-19T20:04:50.680Z

Octagonist:

You could have fun with scenes.

Yes, that’s probably the way to go.

[quote=“Octagonist, post:13, topic:176535”]
This way, you introduce some element of performance variability, and risk of mistakes. Which is fun [/quote]

Yes, because I am a musician

TheWhistler · 2022-07-20T08:18:30.951Z

Hello all,
just to bring this to an end. I gave up my initial plan to do everything with the Octatrack (was just so tempting to have all in one box)
I paired the Octa (with arranger activated) with my Digitakt with mute mode set to pattern and leaving mute activated (nice purple btw. ).
This gives me the ability to mute drums with my left hand (4 fingers at a time) and blending things in on the Octatrack with my right hand using the fader.

So drums are Digitakt now. Still not sure if I want them be direct or thru-track.

Thank´s for your input. Helped me thinking it over.

BTW: The Octatrack has one strange behavior when you set it master-mode for pattern change (PC) .
All my boxes are set to Auto-Channel 16. Octa is set to Autochannel 16 and to send PC on Autochannel. Does not work.

You have to set it to channel 16. I don´t understand that and think this counter-intuitiv or a bug.
I´ve been through all my midi setup because I thought everything is ok with my Elektrons, not so.
Maybe worth a ticket, or can someone enlighten me with the deeper sense of that?

Octagonist · 2022-07-20T08:35:18.389Z

TheWhistler:

Maybe worth a ticket, or can someone enlighten me with the deeper sense of that?

I kinda agree… and I’ve been caught by this recently.

But, to offer another perspective: auto-channel means “take the incoming data on this one channel and forward it to another channel”. When the gear is set up to use auto-channel, the actual destination channel is unknown. you may know that the destination is the right one, but the “essence” of using the auto-channel is that it could end up anywhere.

Sync makes more sense to have an explicit end point (a channel destination), because it wont ever change (through any given performance). So “leaving it to the auto-channel to figure out” doesn’t actually make sense.

Now, I know this is totally waffly, because ultimately the same channels should get used. It’s just a story, and perhaps a design guide.

TheWhistler · 2022-07-20T08:54:42.355Z

I know what you mean and in the end it makes sense.
But there should be a least a big hint. I would consider myself an advanced user (long time Takt/Tone owner).
This is what drives unexperienced users nuts. It is logical in a way but not intuitive.
So a warning sign should pop up

To pair two of those devices with clock AND pattern change via PC is such an obvious thing.
If this is not intended, there shouldn´t even be the option to set it to auto.
Choose a channel and that´s it.

I will write a ticket.

tnussb · 2022-07-20T08:55:14.002Z

TheWhistler:

Maybe worth a ticket, or can someone enlighten me with the deeper sense of that?

Not worth a ticket, because you just need to read the manual carefully …

The sync setting channel “auto” doesn’t refer to the “auto channel” at all, but means “automatic”.

From the manual:

If AUTO is chosen the first MIDI channel used by the audio tracks and not used by any of the MIDI tracks, will be used.

The auto channel itself is all about dispatching MIDI input and has nothing to do with outputting MIDI.

TheWhistler · 2022-07-20T09:00:06.128Z

You are right and believe me I read the manual, I enjoy it at times even the Elektron ones.
Got me the Octatrack-Notebook by SynthDawg as well and printed it out.

tnussb:

The sync setting channel “auto” doesn’t mean auto channel, but means “automatic”.

Don´t get me wrong, I don´t want to start a debate on how badly this thing is to operate (it´s not and it is one of the coolest things I ever bought).

Why is this even an option? This is the part I don´t understand.

Don´t get me wrong. I appreciate your input and you are totally right.

tnussb · 2022-07-20T09:01:34.256Z

TheWhistler:

Why is this even an option. That is the part I don´t understand.

Well, that’s a really GOOD question. Made never really sense to me to set it to “auto” …