Clips based workflow vs. Elektron patterns

The Lounge Other Gear
21

clips are cool.

i never used Ableton — however, i had RM1x which is somewhere in between clip-based and Elektron-style pattern-based workflows.
RM1x’s «phrases» are not full-blown clips (yet) — but they have quite a few of the same properties, and this added lot of flexibility.

these days almost all of my grooveboxes that i use regularly are actually clip-based – either hardware (MC-707, MC-101, Circuit Tracks) and software (Groove Rider 2, BAM, Drambo).

pattern-based workflow feels just less flexible. in case of Elektron machines, this is compensated with lots of performance features that add flexibility from the other side. anyway, i rarely use my Syntakt as a single box.

1 Like
22

You can set the clip launch mode to toggle and turn quantisation off if I understand what you want correctly.

Edit to add this video which covers a lot:

3 Likes
23

There must be a lot of hardware that addresses this. Certainly MC-101 and family, 1010 blackbox I’m pretty sure.

24

^ yep that’s nice advice re: clip firing behaviour.

There’s some subtle differences between Live & Elektron, and obviously with Live and Max there are mountains of ways you can go about achieving certain things.

I personally found with Push (and it’s been a while) but the way it uses the New button to make another scene continued to make me iterate down the clip list, because whatever is your selected track doesn’t get copied - so you can use this empty clip for new jams.

  • this is like, exactly the point of Live. This is a way you can roll with Overbridge also, OB in all your tracks and tweak to taste later.

A bit off topic but, one of the things that bugged me out was the way that like, effects don’t work in the same manner as they do on Elektron.

With a pattern, when you switch the Effects change with it. In Live, a ‘Scene’ is effectively a pattern, but you don’t add Effects to your ‘scenes’, you add them to individual tracks, or to send/returns.

It’s just funny the way it works, like, I’m not changing the effect based on what clip I’ve fired, It’s based on whatever automation I setup ahead of time, or whatever I’m live tweaking. Again I believe there are some devices that will save macro’s for you, but it’s a pain.

More often than not, to get around things, I find in Live I just start bloating things, things not working for you on one track, just press control D on the whole track and try something else. Live is less of a hassle in that way. I’ve seen dudes sets with hundreds of tracks all collapsed into groups. Not to say a maximalist approach is best, but just, that you don’t necessarily have to have a ceiling in Live when it comes to experimentation. Heck, duplicate the whole Live Set file, start messing around. That sort of thing is so much easier on the computer.

Still, I really miss double tapping stop to kill all effects when I’m in Live.

And generally I find setup on Elektrons really easy, in Live I feel like I wind up in software administration mode a lot of the time.

Anyway, I’d try and pick up a cheapie second hand Push 2 and see what the workflow does for you.

2 Likes
25

the strength of session view for me is being able to record on the fly loads of automations in different clips per track, different note patterns etc and then being able to launch these independently to find nice combinations.

i try and get out of quickly tho and get some semblance of an arrangement going if that’s my intention.

when adding new parts to the arrangement, i may go back to session to start repeating that process.

I reckon just try it out, having a bad time with Ableton could have been a multitude of things.

Making patterns on an Elektron box and working in Ableton are just worlds apart imo, both are fun and lead to to different places.

1 Like
26

I use a workflow with Elektron machines and Ableton, where everything runs through Overbridge to capture a multitrack setup. In Ableton, I work with a dense template, and on the Elektron boxes, each track is assigned to a single pattern. I map modulations to an external MIDI controller (like the breath controller or mod wheel) for more control.

I record in both clips and arrangement view simultaneously, and I often trigger new lines of clips, when I explore different parts of a song or experiment with new modulation ideas. This gives me a “jam version” in the arrangement view and a patchwork of clips in the session view, all with multitrack recordings.

I usually leave the project like this for a while to return with a fresh perspective. When I come back, I spend time labeling the clips and listening to them in isolation. If a clip doesn’t contain any modulation, I delete it, keeping only one version of each possible part of a song for one track.

I then listen to the “jam version” arrangement and switch things up by pulling in clips from the session view, almost like solving a puzzle. The only downside is that I need to turn off any recorded effects, but this also opens up new possibilities for the arrangement, like adding new return effects.

Overall, I really think the “session view” is a powerful tool for live sets and when used in combination with the arrangement view, but it’s also really easy to create “loop syndrome”, so I’d say use it sparcely as a canva and not to build up your entire music!

4 Likes
27

Exactly the same mental state as OP, thank you for this thread.

Once I again have time to make music, my plan is to test this out:

  1. make loops on Elektrons
  2. record said loops into Push clips and beam clips to AL via cloud
  3. arrange clips nad finalize in AL

Currently I’m doing something similar via Overbridge by recording stems into arrangement view, but this seems more streamlined.

4 Likes
28

Basically, you’re still learning how to use the Bento. Quant Size is the parameter to look for. Usually setting it to 1 bar is great and then you hit the pad at any clock beat other than beat 1 if you want to hear it play as of the next bar. Same logic is true for stopping a loop. Pretty convenient. Note that launch mode needs to be set to Toggle for this purpose.

Bento gives you 16 loops per track, with each loop having any length. That’s a lot. Launching loops across tracks is currently not a good experience yet, even though switching tracks is pretty fast when you’re in the Tracks screen.

2 Likes
29

So I work in DT2 and Ableton session mode a lot during the writing process. However, I write melodic rock music with electronic elements, so this might not be the ideal workflow if you’re doing something purely rhythmic like techno.

I tend to start my songs with just my DT while I sit on the couch. I’ll come up with a rhythmic skeleton there, maybe 4 or 5 patterns. Then I move to my desk and record synth chords and melodies straight into the DT. Once I feel like I have something decent enough, I’ll load the drums into Ableton, just as one clip per pattern rather than breaking out the individual tracks at this point. I’ll only load an individual drum pattern if I got some really cool effect on it using outboard gear like my Blooper or Microcosm. Sometimes I load the synth clips, sometimes I re-record them into Ableton, again, depending if I got something outboard or in the DT that I can’t do in Ableton. From there, I start with the guitar, bass, and EZdrummer 3.

What I like about clips is the way I can very quickly write 20 guitar parts and find 4 of them that work together. I can leave this pile of potential parts in a scene way down at the bottom while I audition stuff in the structure at the top. As OP alluded to, there’s no “parking lot” for potential patterns in DT unless you record them all to samples, so Ableton speeds up the writing process in this way.

Most of the stuff from the original DT jam gets replaced in Ableton. EZdrummer takes over 90% of the percussion elements and the synth parts get re-recorded a half dozen times or more. But the creative ease of the DT, plus its portability, make it a crucial element of my process.

Edit: oh, and I use a push 2 while recording because I can quickly use it one-handed, which is important when you have a heavy guitar slung across your neck. I’m not trying to navigate Ableton with a guitar pick in my hand.

1 Like
31

Like I said, Bento scenes and loops are what opened me up to this workflow in the first place and I think they are fantastic. I‘ll check the settings you’ve mentioned again and see if I can make it do what I want. I definitely love the toggle function, which is also available for one shots if I remember correctly.

What you’re describing doesn’t sound like it would solve all of my issues though, since sometimes I‘d want to launch the clips unquantized at odd places in the timeline, what you’re describing sounds like it would still take one bar till it toggles. I think I want to do this instead, at least sometimes:

Now I have a clear goal: see if I can do this in Bento and Live 11. Edit: nice, Bento has lots of quantization option for loops and setting them to none does what I want.

Thanks everyone for sharing your approaches btw, this has been really helpful! I‘ll see how far I can make this work within Bento first. I really enjoy feeding it with loops from other machines and perform a bit while playing in sounds. This might be enough of what I‘m looking for.

32

Over the years there have been times when I really embraced the clip workflow in Live, and it’s kind of amazing what you can do. Like you can program pretty much whatever behavior you want, whether that’s quantized or unquantized launching, looping vs one-shot playback, randomly jumping to other clips, seamlessly switching between clips (like Direct Jump on A4/Rytm), it’s all there. And then when you add in the fact that you can record all of your clip shenanigans in the Arrangement view for further editing, the sky’s the limit.

I don’t work that way anymore, mostly got my head stuck in the sands of Elektron patterns nowadays, but just wanted to add a vote of confidence for the clip-based life, should you choose to go that route — it can be an extremely flexible and inspiring way to create music when you learn your way around and embrace all the possibilities (referring to Ableton Live specifically but surely some of the ideas translate elsewhere).

I’m enjoying your Bento observations and reviews! Thanks for sharing with us.

2 Likes
33

hard to overstate how much more musical these features make a clip-based workflow. I’m really really excited that follow actions are finally coming to Push standalone in 12.2 (not sure about legato mode though…)

2 Likes
34

You can go below the one bar setting as far as I remember. Up to you to manage the timely launching of the clips in that case. You can even set launch mode to gate and the loop will only play as long as you’re holding it.

I have been using the Blackbox for the last 5 years on a daily/weekly basis and this workflow is exactly how I am sketching songs. Feel free to get in touch if you have any specific questions. Naturally, Bento is a slightly different beast but there is a lot of overlap when it comes to clips/loops.

1 Like
35

I‘ve edited the post last night after checking my Bento, there are quite a few options for quantization of the toggle and one of them is none. I‘m optimistic now and might take you up on your offer, thanks a lot!

1 Like
36

…the clip view…the sexiest sonic exel sheet there is…

good for firing “live” content…good for catching and sorting snippets and frist ideas…
meanwhile, really bad for getting things done without loosing urself and all arrangement focus…

but u can easily get lost in any a few bars loop likewise in some bunch of next nice elektron patterns…

arrangement view in ableton/bitwig and song editor on elektrons are at some point ur best and only friend…
at least when it comes to crossing any finish lines…and stop just noodeling along and around forever…

2 Likes
37

I use max for live and launch sorts of hybrid scenes.

2 Likes
38

Just wanted to share that I‘ve found out Bento has different options for each loop. This is wonderful, I can set some loops to toggle and quantized to one bar, while others are set to trigger and only 1/16 step quantizstion, so I can trigger them only once by pressing one step ahead of where they would be in the sequence.

Really looking forward to learning how to build my tracks by recording some things as loops and firing them off at the right time while other elements I play into the sequencer. Kind of a best of both worlds situation!

2 Likes
39

I always get out of session view asap for exactly this reason.

Arrangement view I always end up making sections even if it’s rudimentary and it gets me thinking in that way.

Yes you can make scenes in the same way but it doesn’t usually pan out like that for me.

2 Likes