Best way to record analog rytm?

TrabanT · 2015-05-21T11:31:27.000Z

hey teomi … u r spot on and must be very smart with all that knowledge bomb… I wish I would remember all that after reading through …

there is 1 thing I d like to mention… I managed to buy a non balanced XLR cable (xlr to the same size a headphone on the AR is.…) … my assumption was , every XLR is balanced… just saying…

cheers bro!

xidnpnlss · 2015-05-21T12:10:49.000Z

All great info here. Thanks very much.

I have a question; I’ve always assumed the answer but stilla bit confused.

When you raise the gain are you in effect employing the preamp? Or is employing the preamp (on an interface or adat, in my case) entirely seperated from whether fain is used or not.

I too hear obvious differences from what comes out if my hardware headphone output and that which comes from recording. I writw this off to an invetible loss through cables, inputs, conversion, clock, speakers ect. Maybe I’m not being thorough enough on my recording stage? Will there inevitability be a difference between the two?

stutech · 2015-05-21T12:52:38.000Z

Well, did you check the HP impedances? That’s where I’d start…

And whether your audiointerfaces gain increases the gain pre or post conversion, I don’t have an apogee so you will need to read the manual.

xidnpnlss · 2015-05-21T15:14:24.000Z

""tsutek"":

Well, did you check the HP impedances? That’s where I’d start…

And whether your audiointerfaces gain increases the gain pre or post conversion, I don’t have an apogee so you will need to read the manual.

Oh. I’m not the OP. Sorry for the confusion.

But in diving further into the matter I’ve just taken a look at my cables and they are TS not TRS. Damnit! I’m going to raise hell at that store…

Ya live, ya learn.

Re preamp/gain: let me try a different question. Even if one is using a LineLevel input, one is still using a preamp?

Edit: Sorry for the absolutely noob questions. PEOPLE OF EUROPE: seems the two he mentioned are kind of only Stateside. I’m going to start paying more attention to my cables. From which cable companies do you get yours? I’m seeing Vovox at Thomann…

yesimsteve · 2015-05-21T16:19:51.000Z

If you’re using line level (with Apogee) you’re bypassing the Preamp.

Otherwise, if you’re using instrument or mic, and you raise the gain (in Apogee’s Maestro software), you are increasing the volume of the Preamp.

Can’t comment on how it works on your particular audio interface.

I use HOSA cables. But I’m a hobbyist and don’t run a professional studio. If I were to upgrade my cables I would go for something like this.

http://www.amazon.com/Monoprice-Premier-4inch-16AWG-Plated/dp/B001UJEKZ6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1432225383&sr=8-1&keywords=TRS+to+XLR

I don’t feel the more expensive cables justify the price.

xidnpnlss · 2015-05-21T16:27:53.000Z

""yesimsteve"":

If you’re using line level (with Apogee) you’re bypassing the Preamp.

Otherwise, if you’re using instrument or mic, and you raise the gain (in Apogee’s Maestro software), you are increasing the volume of the Preamp.

Can’t comment on how it works on your particular audio interface.

I personally have a RME Babyface. I either use it’s own XLR inputs (using a blanced TRS - XLR (I know that one is balanced)) and don’t hit 48v or Instrument…OR use my Behringer ADA8000 for only line level inputs.

I always use the gain because it seems that’s the only way to get a loud enough signal from either my AlphaJuno2 or AR.

yesimsteve · 2015-05-21T16:38:34.000Z

Turn up the gain where though? I’m copying this from the internet, because it’s pretty good:

It is easy to look at a professionally-mastered waveform and see that it “fills” space nicely, with big, fat waveforms and full sound, then look at your own recordings and see thin, “weak” sounding audio. Keep in mind that recording engineers do not actually record at this loud, compressed level - this additional amplification is done after the recordings have been made, in an effort to present a finished product that sounds full, loud, and professional.

In actuality, the recordings are usually made at around the -24db to -12db level, nowhere near the 0db floor. This leaves plenty of headroom to mix and work in, without having to worry about pushing the mix to the point of clip. Once the mix sounds good, additional compression and gain are typically applied to the master channel, boosting everything to the desired level of volume. Of course, there is variance in the amount of amplification needed - you probably wouldn’t want to compress an audiobook track to the degree you would compress a track of electronic dance music.

Therefore, what you’ll want to do is verify the level of your recording. It is easy to get caught up in the numbers, but what is most important is that the recording sounds clean and detailed. Even if the recording is low, it can be amplified after-the-fact with your DAW software. Rather than turning up the gain on your interface right away, simply turn it up to a level where audio sounds clean, record, and boost from there. Cranking up the gain on the interface can amplify the noise floor, causing static and white-noise sounds that are obviously undesirable.

teomi · 2015-05-21T16:44:30.000Z

I will try to answer all the questions here…

[ol]
[li]Every XLR is balanced because it has 3 prongs - Hot, Cold and Shield. You can make it non balanced on teh other end though if you connect it to a TS cable (only 2 soldering points) but that should be used if you want to connect balanced to unbalanced…very rare case in my opinion.
[/li]
[li]About raising gain on a preamp. A mic preamp has only ONE function - going from microphone level to line level so that the signal can be loud enough to properly interface with other line level equipment (mixers, speakers audio interfaces…). There is no real reason to use a mic preamp with the RYTM. The RYTM is not a microphone

If you want to get extra coloration etc…then you first need to attenuate the RYTM using a DI.

Loss of quality between listening to the headphone out and the actual recording can be a product of many reasons…it’s hard to say. But the rule of thumb is - the shorter your signal path the better the signal. Check to see if you don’t have redundancy or to long of cable just for nothing…also your interface is ultimately the device that determines how well the sound is digitized…

If you do things right and use quality devices and cables there should be a noticeable difference in quality…

[/li]
[li]If your device is line level…using a preamp is not needed! BUT if you have a preamp that adds smooth coloration - use a DI first.
[/li]
[li]About the RME Babyface - if you are using it’s XLR inputs, you’re using the preamp… if you simply connect the AR line output to the RME’s Line input, there is not going to be ANY difference in volume considering that you’re listening at Unity gain![/li]
[/ol]

xidnpnlss · 2015-05-21T16:45:41.000Z

""yesimsteve"":

Use the gain where though? I’m copying this from the internet, but it’s actually pretty good:

It is easy to look at a professionally-mastered waveform and see that it “fills” space nicely, with big, fat waveforms and full sound, then look at your own recordings and see thin, “weak” sounding audio. Keep in mind that recording engineers do not actually record at this loud, compressed level - this additional amplification is done after the recordings have been made, in an effort to present a finished product that sounds full, loud, and professional.

In actuality, the recordings are usually made at around the -24db to -12db level, nowhere near the 0db floor. This leaves plenty of headroom to mix and work in, without having to worry about pushing the mix to the point of clip. Once the mix sounds good, additional compression and gain are typically applied to the master channel, boosting everything to the desired level of volume. Of course, there is variance in the amount of amplification needed - you probably wouldn’t want to compress an audiobook track to the degree you would compress a track of electronic dance music.

Therefore, what you’ll want to do is verify the level of your recording. It is easy to get caught up in the numbers, but what is most important is that the recording sounds clean and detailed. Even if the recording is low, it can be amplified after-the-fact with your DAW software. Rather than turning up the gain on your interface right away, simply turn it up to a level where audio sounds clean, record, and boost from there. Cranking up the gain on the interface can amplify the noise floor, causing static and white-noise sounds that are obviously undesirable.

oooooKKKKKKK back to the mixing drawing board. I’m turning up the gain on…the preamp? input?..so that I get -6db. It seems pretty clean anyway…but who knows…

I don’t know. It seems like a lot of dynamic effects to apply to get it loud enough. But then that’s why I’m not a professional…

I don’t know how this would work when recording the Master outputs without raising the gain…

But, anyway, I’ll need to try shit out.

Thank you very, very much for your massive help. (Sorry to jack the post).,

xidnpnlss · 2015-05-21T16:54:06.000Z

""teomi"":

I will try to answer all the questions here…

[ol]
[li]About the RME Babyface - if you are using it’s XLR inputs, you’re using the preamp… if you simply connect the AR line output to the RME’s Line input, there is not going to be ANY difference in volume considering that you’re listening at Unity gain![/li]
[/ol]

Man my head hurts.

Ok so maybe I’"m confusing myself and everybody else. I’m really sorry about this…

On the Babyface there is NO line level input; just it’s XLR connect on the breakout cable (think Apogee Duet). If I don’t hit the 48v or Instrument it’s Line Level. On my ADAT, there is both an XLR (dubbed MIC IN) and Line In.

Basically my question is that if I use gain on the Line Ins am I in effect using the preamp? Should I stop using gain on Line Ins as gain is used for instrument or mics? The idea being I boost things in the mix…

yesimsteve · 2015-05-21T16:56:29.000Z

In summary, it could be that it sounds low – but it’s actually at a desirable recording level.

Also, when I make music I always put a limiter on my master channel. Maybe you’re already doing this. People will tell you its wrong. Whatever…

xidnpnlss · 2015-05-21T17:00:28.000Z

""yesimsteve"":

In summary, it could be that it sounds low – but it’s actually at a desirable recording level.

Also, when I make music I always put a limiter on my master channel. Maybe you’re already doing this. People will tell you its wrong. Whatever…

Ha. Fair enough. I’ll see what’s up with recording edit: with gain at 0. Thanks again man.

teomi · 2015-05-21T18:12:42.000Z

@yesimsteve:

The Babyface’s XLR’s are balanced inputs that can be used a Mic or Line via the RME software. I realized it after looking at it again…

It’s a very basic Mic/Line design.
Every pro mixing desk has a switch on a channel strip that configures the balanced inputs to be either mic or line depending on what you hook into it.

If you set it to line, it bypasses the mic preamp.

With the babyface you set it in software.

If you want to hook up your AR to the babyface - do it via a TRS to XLR cable and use line level setting within the RME software.

Gain is for microphones. No need for the AR. The AR has plenty of gain when volume is at max - and by the way…the volume should be set to max when recording it to digital.

Hope this helps.
Eitan

xidnpnlss · 2015-05-21T18:24:31.000Z

""teomi"":

@yesimsteve:

The Babyface’s XLR’s are balanced inputs that can be used a Mic or Line via the RME software. I realized it after looking at it again…

It’s a very basic Mic/Line design.
Every pro mixing desk has a switch on a channel strip that configures the balanced inputs to be either mic or line depending on what you hook into it.

If you set it to line, it bypasses the mic preamp.

With the babyface you set it in software.

If you want to hook up your AR to the babyface - do it via a TRS to XLR cable and use line level setting within the RME software.

Gain is for microphones. No need for the AR. The AR has plenty of gain when volume is at max - and by the way…the volume should be set to max when recording it to digital.

Hope this helps.
Eitan

I think that was to me, but, yeah…heaps of help.

I’ve already switched out the cables for balanced ones. A world of difference. No need for gain…and my mixes sound like garbage. WOOHOOO. Better late than never.

Thanks guys. Seriously.

teomi · 2015-05-21T18:28:29.000Z

I’m glad this was helpful to you @Xidnpnlss.

The next step is making your cables

Eitan

stutech · 2015-05-22T09:41:56.000Z

This thread has me scratching my head… If the signal sounds good coming in, just leave the input gain alone and boost volume later in the DAW? A simple linear gain operation in a DAW is much more “neutral” than most analog circuits.

Also, with 24bit recording, you will have a massive dynamic range, there’s absolutely no need to record hot. Have you checked which bits are used in a typical electronic music recording?

this “record as hot as possible” advice should be finally buried as it only applied during the 90s

As for using balanced vs unbalanced connections or using line level at unity vs. DI’ng and using a mic pre - there are theoretical “best practices” of course, but in the end what sounds good is good. Many people prefer using unbalanced outs with a Manley Massive passive for example, they somehow prefer the “technically inferior” sound. Also, some people like to use HP outs instead of balanced main outs because they sound different. So keep your mind open and experiment for best results… When in doubt, level-matched A/B testing of signalpaths will reveal all.

cedmondson · 2015-06-05T13:36:26.000Z

""teomi"":

Sorry guys there’s a bit of confusing advice here…

The Analog Rytm outputs LINE level signals.
This is not the same as INSTRUMENT level and certainly not the same as MICROPHONE level!

To record the Rytm you need a balanced Line level cable.
If your audio interface has Line inputs via 1/4’’ connectors then you need a Balanced 1/4’’ cable (balanced means that the 1/4’’ cable is a TRS or “Stereo”).

If your interface has an XLR Line input then you need to have an XLR on one end… it’s still just a balanced cable.

INSTRUMENT output level is considerably lower than line level. Instrument level is what comes out of electric guitars, basses etc.
The Rytm doesn’t output instrument level. Instrument level also differ in Impedance from Line level, therefore, connecting the Rytm to an “Instrument” input is not a good choice.

There’s really no reason to use a preamp here unless you want to add (even more) coloration to the sound.

If you want to use a preamp in your chain, you have to realize that a preamp’s input handles MICROPHONE levels.
In order to use it properly with a LINE level device like the RYTM, you need to first attenuate the output to mic level.

This is what DI boxes do.

What you do then is connect the Rytm to a DI (1/4’’ - XLR) and then connect the output of the DI to your preamp. then you can raise the gain on your preamp to get a proper recording level.

Now to answer your original question
The best way to record requires a good interface with good AD converters. It also requires good cables. Cables make a difference!

I only use StarQuad cables (4 conductor cable). The two main companies that manufacture 4 conductor cables are either Mogami or Canare. Both are considered the industry standard for high-end cable.

They are more expensive than your regular store bought cable, but if you learn to solder it’s cheaper than the cheapest store bought cable…

If you hear a difference between the headphone out and the soundcard out, there are several factors to consider:

[ul]
[li]Too long of a signal path[/li]
[li]Mediocre cables[/li]
[li]Sample rate/Bit depth of the recorded signal?[/li]
[li]Mediocre sound card…[/li]
[/ul]

Hope this helps.
Eitan

Eitan, with the Canare Star Quad cable is it a narrower gauge than standard 1/4" cables? I have heard they are and require something to beef them up at the connector for relief.

teomi · 2015-06-05T21:36:43.000Z

Canare makes various gauges for their cable.
If you get this for permanent installs (patch bays…)

http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDisplay.aspx?productItemID=54

And this for gear hookup:

http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDisplay.aspx?productItemID=53

you should be fine. It’s standard gauge so every connector should work just fine.

Eitan

cedmondson · 2015-06-06T12:38:09.000Z

Eitan,

I have bunch of old Canare cables. They are over 20 years old now. I bought them when I was living in Japan and they are still as good as new. Very high quality product. Unfortunately at the time I didn’t realize that they were unbalanced! So I have a huge box of great guitar cables:-)

Out of curiosity, I did an experiment and plugged in a balanced cable in one of the stereo outputs of the AK and one of the unbalanced Canare cables into the other and there was absolutely no difference in either volume level or audio quality so my interface (UA Apollo) must be compensating for the unbalanced signal or something.

In any case, I still need a bunch of cables to wire up a patch bay and to make some additional connections. Definitely makes financial sense to solder up my own and I have had very good experience with the brand. Thanks for the recommendations.

teomi · 2015-06-06T20:04:40.000Z

If you have a quality cable (like Canare) and the cable run is short there shouldn’t be much different in quality and level between Bal/Unbal especially if the gear you are connecting is pro level - which is in your case.

When you are talking 20 feet and longer and when you are talking about Microphone levels. Then is when the cables make a LOT of difference.

Also when wiring up a patchbay I will ALWAYS use StarQuad (4 conductor) cables. There are just too many things that can go wrong if you don’t because there are so many cables in close proximity including power lines…