I’ve incorporated the Expert Sleepers USAMO (< $200) into my setup. It took some fiddling, but I’ve got tight sync now with Reaper through my Focusrite Pro 40 out to my Digitakt, which sequences 3 hardware synths through MIDI. Like others have said, check the compatibility list to see if your interface is supported.
Everytime I attempt hybrid setups I just end up walking away in tears because of sync issues (MIDI + Audio latency), it’s a real mood killer. I just purchased a Pronus Studio Live mixer so that I could track 16 tracks of simultaneous audio from a pure hardware setup. After that I can move over to the DAW and do all the editing.
This strict separation of hardware and software is the only thing that sits well with me, but that SND ACME-4 does look pretty tasty.
On budget, there’s also the E-RM MIDIClock+, around 200€.
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I used to use Live and your story is one I was far too fa,I liar with. Innshort, I never got things running tight.
I switched to Bitwig at the start of the year and all I can say is, everything now works and I sync.
Live is shockingly bad with midi imho.
Cheers for all the responses.
I can see the benefits of an external midi clock, and the multiclock seems a truly excellent piece of gear. I guess it’s a matter of just how much this bloody jittering gets to me; I am already completely bald so the hair pulling is no longer of any use!
I’m intrigued by the comment about Bitwig; I’m suprised that it’s possible to get tighter midi synchronisation then Ableton have implemented, especially as Live prides itself on performance and integration. Maybe Live 10 will provide better syncing.
As with most things, it really helps to first decide what setup you want and then find a solution for any issues specific to that setup.
The difference beteen jitter and latency
It’s also important to understand the difference between jitter and latency. Jitter is the variation in the time between subsequent clock signals, latency is the delay between when a signal goes in and when a signal comes out.
Both jitter and latency are inherent in any digital system and can’t be prevented completely. You can only try to reduce them to a level where they’re no longer an issue for what you’re trying to do, or you can find a way to deal with them.
Direct sync vs. derived tempo
Another thing that confuses a lot of people when they’re talking about MIDI clock sync is the different between devices that use the clock signal directly, and devices that derive their tempo from the clock signal.
When syncing to an external clock signal, older or simpler devices forward their internal sequencer a single step every time they receive a MIDI clock message. Subsequently, these devices can’t have a resolution of more than 24 ppqn and any internal swing will be disabled when they are synced to an external clock signal.
Modern or more complex devices derive a tempo by averaging incoming MIDI clock signal and use that BPM value to set their internal clock source when syncing to an external clock signal. This way, they can continue to offer a higher resolution than 24 ppqn and continue to offer features such as swing even when they are synced to an external clock signal.
Another advantage of deriving the tempo by averaging the incoming clock signal is that jitter is much less a concern than it is with direct sync.
Computers are often better than hardware (really)
If we’re talking about MIDI clock, it turns out that computers actually output a more stable clock signal over regular MIDI interfaces than most hardware devices. As you can read at https://forum.mutable-instruments.net/t/midigal-yet-another-midipal-inspired-project/6731/116?u=t2k, Ableton Live running on OS X with a simple USB MIDI interface can generate a clock signal that’s over 3 times less jittery than what comes out of an Analog Four or a RYTM.
It’s the latency, stupid
In most cases where people are complaining about MIDI clock, they’re actually dealing with the latency that’s inherent in adding external hardware to a DAW setup where the audio from an external synths that’s coming back into the computer through their audio interface is delayed in comparison to the audio generated internally by the DAW or any plugins running inside it.
Most DAWs will offer a way to resolve this problem by setting a per-channel latency value for external hardware. Some DAWs even include an automated procedure to measure latency and set the compensation delay.
Another solution to this latency problem can be to mix the audio output from your computer with your hardware synths using an external mixer.
Don’t buy the snake oil
Using a “sample accurate audio clock to MIDI sync” hardware solution can help on computer setups where you have trouble getting a MIDI clock signal out of your computer that’s properly in sync with the audio that’s coming our of your computer.
However, keep in mind that this does noting to reduce the latency issue of getting the audio from external synths back into your computer through your audio interface.
Also keep in mind that reducing MIDI clock jitter won’t make much difference for modern hardware devices, so the only thing you’re resolving with additional synch hardware would be a latency problem which you can often also fix by changing a setting inside your DAW.
Recommendations and suggestions
Ok, keeping all of the above in mind, you might want to try to go through the following list of suggestions:
- Does your external hardware use MIDI clock messages direct to advance it’s sequencer or does it derive the tempo and uses its internal clock? If the latter is the case, then some jitter in the MIDI clock signal is not really an issue.
- Do you want to bring the audio from your external hardware back into your DAW or do you want to mix everything using an external mixer? In the first case you need to deal with latency of incoming audio, in the second case you don’t.
- Are there any issues with the MIDI clock signal your computer generates and can you fix these by tweaking settings in your DAW? Can you update your OS or maybe even switch to a setup that’s known for better audio and MIDI support?
- In case you are not using your DAW as the master clock, make sure you’re using one that’s actually good at syncing to an external clock signal (e.g. Bitwig really is better at this than Live for whatever reason).
- If recording latency is an issue, maybe it’s time to get a new audio interface. These days you don’t even have to get a very expensive one to get low-latency audio input; even some of the recent cheap Behringer interfaces offer impressive low-latency performance.
Finally, your life will be better if you accept that there’s not a perfect solution that will make jitter and latency go away completely. Your only option is to work around it somehow. 
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Very, very helpful. Sorry to hijack this thread but I’m wondering how to get my updated set up to work too. I used to have a hardware only set up that was synced with an SBX1. When travelling, I used a MacBook pro with plug ins and worked completely in the box.
I’m now looking to use a slimmed down set up at home when I’m not travelling that consists of a MacBook Pro running Logic X, a Nord A1, Digitakt and soon a Dominion Club. At some point, I’ll introduce an Acidlab 606 too. I won’t even attempt to get hardware and plug ins working in sync due to previous issues (as you have outlined). I’m quite happy just to have the DAW driving the sync and for the Digitakt/Dominion/Acidlab sequencers to keep time. I’ll play chords in Logic and basically ‘jam’, recording the results directly into my interface. From there I can edit and build tracks, add FX, compression etc ‘in the box’. Could this be easily achieved, potentially with something like the Midiclock +?
Unusual that it’s only been mentioned once so far, but why aren’t you using Overbridge ? Say what you like about OB but when you get it working, the sync is on par with any external clocking device out there. My thoughts are that it does this in a very similar manner to the Innerclock devices. So having something like this in your setup already, you should definitely be using it. Midi clock from DAWs is crap. This has been the case for a long time. Since they stopped making motherboards that had a MIDI/Joystick port built right on to them. Unlikely to change either seeing as we are not changing the way we build computers. Setting compensation delay on each incoming track is fiddly, only kind of works, and seems to be readjusted to a slightly different value every time you start/stop the transport.
And rather than mix everything in the box via your audio interface and having to deal with latency, using the direct outputs and a small external analogue mixing desk will allow you to monitor you instruments with little or no latency at all. Then if you still need to record your mix or whatever, use the sub/aux mix on the mixer straight back in to you audio interface. You can also set up your favourite plugins as send/return FX for extra jam power. Just a thought.
The more you rely on the computer syncing or monitoring, the more you will be disappointed.
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Thanks for such detailed responses; I really appreciate the level people go to to offer advice.
First off: Overbridge - I just found out introduced more audio latency and drop outs and I was forever fiddling with the bloody settings in Ableton or OB to get it to play nice. I may revisit though.
As for the other detailed suggestions - I think that the response should become a philosophy rather than midi advice.
I think that working in the box and having no experience of music making outside of that, be it a band or playing a typical instrument, I’ve become programmed to expect and believe that all the elements must/should be perfectly in time, to the nanosecond. I guess this perspective is going to have to change.
My audio interface is certainly a problem and I’m awaiting Behringer’s intervention; this may well be the greatest culprit and, if fine tuned, may alleviate the extent of my problems.
It’s funny when you start adding hardware to the laptop setup; as with many things, there are so many elements that have never been a consideration that start to become apparent.
I’m really grateful to this forum for all the advice and guidance that has been forthcoming.
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I got a Sync-Gen 2 Pro to get rock solid midi clock from Cubase. Money well spent, was a bit concerned that I wouldn’t hear or notice any difference, but it totally rocks.
I’m thinking of buying an E-RM Multiclock USB. It has individual shift values for each output and a lot of other useful stuff.
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i have the feeling that People can’t understand that subject until they finally have a Sync Dedicated box + useful options included onboard on top of that Sync capability. I never heard someone who invest in this kind of box said it’s not worth the money… so …
A lot of people neglect the Mixer too in their setup, they think a soundcard is a mixer… but it’s not. Of course the primary goal is to make music with their budget : i would never recommend to someone to borrow money to buy a hi-end studio when it is simple savings for a home studio that you must advise.
But when you take the ROAD of the Hardware + Computer in a hybrid setup there’s things with a cost but This makes life easy.
oh i forget DAPAYK who use the ACME 4 too also in an Elektron environement :
What’s fine also in this kind of setup is Sync box with multiple clock start/stop make transitions and loading project more easy.
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wow that is a sweet setup.
Hi, I have a question: will the groove function on the synch box work on midi sync message, or it only works on din sync?
Am I correct in assuming you’re planning to have Logic act as the MIDI clock master and that you’re considering getting an E-RM Midiclock+ to remove any jitter from that clock signal?
I would recommending trying without an E-RM Midiclock+ first. Make sure to use a decent MIDI interface and an active MIDI Thru splitter to distribute the clock signal to your hardware devices.
I would only get an additional hardware device like the E-RM Midiclock+ to remove jitter from Logic’s clock signal if you’re actually having any issues with your hardware not playing tightly.
Please note that removing jitter from the clock signal won’t do anything for the Digitakt because it derives the tempo from the clock signal instead of being driven by it directly (see my message above for an explanation). I don’t know for sure, but I would be surprised if this isn’t also the case for the arpeggiator in the Nord A1. The Dominion Club and the Acidlab 606 might be driven directly by the clock signal; this is something you could ask the manufacturer.
If you’re handy with a soldering iron (or know someone who is) you can build a MidiGAL and run the MidiClk firmware on it to test the quality of the clock signal in your setup and to remove any jitter from the clock signal. See https://midisizer.com/midigal/ and https://midisizer.com/midigal/midiclk/ for details. Building this yourself will give you a much less expensive alternative to the E-RM Midiclock+.
The same site also offers a PCB for a nice compact 1-to-5 MIDI Thru splitter at https://midisizer.com/midithru/
I don’t know which one you asked… (i think it’s working everywhere because the shuffle need to be rock solid and based on audio pulse, that’s the clock coming from the plugin in the DAW or the standalone clock generated by the Box itself) :
acme 4 : http://www.s-n-d.com/acme4e_a.html
http://www.s-n-d.com/acme-4/ACME-4_user_manual.pdf
ERM Multiclock : https://www.e-rm.de/multiclock
(https://www.e-rm.de/data/Multiclock_Manual_EN.pdf)
@t Midisizer Midiclk sounds good but it’s not coming with an audio pulse (plugin VST) to route the clock from the Daw by the Soundcard to the Sync solution right ? i like when the clock is an audio trigger in a hybrid setup i find it a very nice solution.
Correct, but neither does the E-RM Midiclock+ (see https://www.e-rm.de/products/midiclock.php).
I’m not going to argue with your preferences, but IMHO it makes very little sense to spend $500 on this kind of hardware if your setup already works for you.
Sure ! i’m talking about the Multiclock
I’m not going to argue with your preferences, but IMHO it makes very little sense to spend $500 on this kind of hardware if your setup already works for you.
Of course.
Thank you for taking the time to write this, very elegantly and eloquently put, and cleared up a few questions I had.
Many thanks for this. Most helpful. Yes, Logic would send midi clock. If I can have a try without the separate clock, that’s great. I’m planning on running a focusrite interface (thunderbolt) to capture the hardware outputs. Would I also need a separate midi interface or could I use the midi on the focusrite?
Crazy good information, thanks for taking the time writing this.
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