Behringer MS-101


#101

Is there a moral argument to extend IP beyond 20 years? In my opinion if the Curtis estate wants more IP protection, it’s time to create more IP. If the chip were human, it could have college age children or fresh new grandchildren.

Vid below is byLawrence lessig. IP Lawyer


#102

Agreed.

Counterfeit definition:
made in exact imitation of something valuable or important with the intention to deceive or defraud.

They are clones, clearly branded by behringer, with nods to the originals. They also sound really good, like the originals. I would not consider any of these counterfeit because they are not being sold or marketed to be anything that they are not.


#103

Keep in mind that all these Behringer clones really are just circuit-level analogue replicas. You don’t get any kind of patch storage or MIDI CC parameter control.

For example, I personally don’t see the point of getting an SH-101 replica from Behringer when I can get a SH-01A from Roland that sounds just as much like the real thing, but that also offers a 4 voice poly mode and patch storage and full CC control over all parameters and audio over USB for about the same amount of money.

The same thing with the Pro-One replica; for a little bit more you can get an AS-1 which is essentially a modern day version of the same thing that does include patch storage and MIDI CC parameter control and a bunch of other nice stuff such as some excellent effects. And it even has a “true analogue” signal path if that’s your thing.

What I think it kinda lame about these replicas is that Behringer has made no attempt whatsoever to bring anything under voltage control, add patch memories, or make at least some parameters controllable over MIDI.

If Korg can do an original analogue monosynth with full patch memories and full MIDI CC control for less than Behringer wants for its Model D clone, than I don’t feel that Behringer has made that much of an effort here. Sure, the SE-02 is a bit more expensive, but IMHO much more complete and a much more interesting starting point for a Moogish sound.

I could go on. I’m sure these replicas are great for a lot of people, but the lack of innovation in terms of control means that it’s not something I’m terribly interested in. :slight_smile:


#104

Behringer already mentioned somewhere that most people are more interested in 1:1 clones of the analog circuits. Adding digital control (for patch saving, midi cc, etc.) could change the sound quite much. Everything on the analog circuit would need to be controlled digitally, so you need to interpolate all the digital to analog conversations.


#105

Or maybe it’s just easier to copy schematics from old service manuals using modern components?


#106

While I kinda agree, I also have to remind that 7-bit CCs should be banned from nuanced analog synths. One of the beauty of ”detune oscs than wat” etc is that there is much greater room for nuance and resolution than what one gets with a (often poorly) interpolated integer value of 1-127. In fact, I hate the fact that the detune knobs on the SE02 are 7bit!

MIDI is cool and all but lets not delude ourself thinking it does not come with its own set of problems.


#107

It doesn’t matter how easy it is to copy schematics. It seems that’s what people want. You can see the excitment all over the internet.
And they add enough new stuff to the devices that isn’t changing the original analog circuits (on ms-101 the improved step sequencer, fm modulation, triangle or on rd808 a new step sequencer, filter, shaper, etc…). They are not completely lazy :smiley:


#108

I never said nobody is or should be excited. :slight_smile:


#109

Personally I think once all the hype dies down there will be tons of these Behringer copies on the second hand market, once people who never owned the originals become frustrated with the limitations, and once we start seeing A/B comparisions with originals and modern clones like the Roland Boutiques and boutique manufacturers versions.

Putting Behringer’s business practices and reputation aside for the moment and taking a more pragmatic look at the products shown so far, the Neutron is the most interesting yet it looks hideous, the MS-101 has a keyboard which probably won’t be that great and is it going to be better than the similarly priced Korg Monologue? - doubtful. The design of the Pro One looks the best but that is basically because it looks almost the same as the original minus the keyboard (sensible IMHO) They hired in all this talent and this is the best they can do? (Remember they have huge resources compared to Elektron etc) They want to make ‘clones’ but using their copies of the original chips, going by how their BBD chips sound compared to the original chips which they copied, I don’t think anyone would say they are very good at cloning. It will be interesting to see how it all pans out in a few years time.

I love vintage gear, but I have got rid of most of mine now, I prefer modern stuff which can cover the same ground and do more, be more easily controlled and I don’t want some huge one trick pony taking up valuable space, but obviously I’m not Behringer’s target market :wink:


#110

I like what Behringer is doing. It’s a great thing. I mean, I’d like to have a Moog as much as the next guy, but I’m certainly not willing to pay $4000 for it, considering what it does. Think about it, that’s about the same amount of money as the price of a Waldorf Quantum or a DSI Prophet X. Crazy amount of money, and a Moog just isn’t useful enough to warrant that kind of money. Hell, I’m not even sure the Quantum and the Prophet X are, but at least they cover a HUGE spectrum of possibilities.

Now $300 bucks on the other hand, that’s a different story. I might be willing to spend that to get that Moog sound in a song here and there. But $4000? That seems like usury and fleecing to me.


#111

The boutiques sound great but a little static in comparison to the og and if Behringer can get closer in that sense then it’s a win.

You’d have to give up almost all of the electronic goods in your possession, TV, Mobile phone, white goods…surely including the Roland Boutiques? which are all made in China and other countries with lower manufacturing costs. Not to mention clothing & footwear by most of the brands sold in the UK. Once you have done all that, then you can take the moral high ground :joy:


#112

It is a myth that the Boutiques sound static, I’d agree that some are more successful at emulating their counterparts than others though.

To clarify I have no problem with goods made in China, never have and never said that I have, I get stuff made there so it would make me a bit of a hypocrite wouldn’t it?

When I mentioned Behringer’s business practices I was talking about their ‘copying’ an in production classic chip rather than buying it from the small company that makes it, their past form with trying to dominate markets by offering inferior cut price lookalikes, their employment track record, and so on.


#113

If that’s only what you’re interested in, then you can already do so easier and for a lot less money by using NI Monark, Arturia Mini V, or arguably even u-he Diva.

The Minimoog Model D remake from Moog is for people who want to own an original, for whatever reason.


#114

Well, I’d just rather have a hardware synth. I already own the Arturia Suite, so it’s not a problem. However, for $300 bucks, I think it’d make a nice addition to my hardware line-up.


#115

300? Bah, im buying my boog D second hand for 200 :diddly:
Or trade one for a volca keys :wink:


#116

Exactly, moog stuff is assembled by hand, company is owned by employees, and you get the sense that moog employees love what they do, a bit different from some mass produced cashing in knockoff made solely to exploit the fact that moog gear is expensive because of those reasons.


#117

Furthermore, isn’t the moog model D through hole? So its actually repairable by mere mortals, unlike the SMD versions? I can see merit in that, if only for keyboard virtuosos playing in succesful world-touring bands. Or keyboardists of the caped variety.


#118

That works too. :slight_smile:


#119

I don’t care if it’s assembled by hand, or if the employees love the product, etc. In fact, humans make mistakes, and I’d feel much better if it were assembled by robots. Bottom line: I only care about what it sounds like.


#120

Fair enough.