Automapping MIDI controllers (for Arturia V Collection)

tdmusic · 2023-05-17T20:56:58.379Z

holonology:

uhe stuff

Does eg Diva show in your preset browser in KK? I can load it via the drop-down menu but can’t see its presets and the parameter are all in default “page 1, page 2…” mapping so it looks like KK doesn’t realise it’s an NKS plugin? I tried installing the NKS previews from u-he but this hasn’t changed anything

holonology · 2023-05-17T21:04:37.353Z

tdmusic:

Does eg Diva show in your preset browser in KK? I can load it via the drop-down menu but can’t see its presets and the parameter are all in default “page 1, page 2…” mapping so it looks like KK doesn’t realise it’s an NKS plugin? I tried installing the NKS previews from u-he but this hasn’t changed anything

Yes this shows up OK for me from what I can tell. One thng I have done with KK before today is to completely delete the database and restart the computer. I had an issue where plugins I’d deleted (and rescanned) were still in the preset browser despite being deleted. Worth a shot? I also did the thing you describe where you load in a specific file to get the Diva presets to play in KK.

tdmusic · 2023-05-18T07:46:18.260Z

Not sure what is going on but I can’t get Diva to show in KK – not to worry as I don’t think I’ll be using Komplete Kontrol, I just dislike the whole wrapper aspect too much.

TBH pretty disappointed in how little the M32 can control in Ableton if you are not using KK! Seems like there’s no control over device parameters at all, which is a shame.

I might hold on to it just because I got it so cheap, but am probably going to look at either Arturia or Akai instead as it sucks to not be able to control anything in Ableton (I know you can use a user control script to always have the first 8 macros map, but you lose the display functionality)

tdmusic · 2023-05-18T13:12:55.662Z

Realised I had £20 in Andertons loyalty points so bought a black MiniLab mk3. Will be interesting to compare to the M32. I think it’ll fit my needs much better as it integrates with Ableton’s devices properly - I don’t use NI stuff that often tbh. Also it has a physical MIDI out.

I’ll keep the M32 though, I’m sure it’ll find some usage for something!

Edit: Yeah the MiniLab is a better fit for me, I’d say. It’s not perfect, but it has a much better Ableton integration. Can’t get over the fact that the M32 one doesn’t let you control device parameters (unless you use Komplete Kontrol or disable the DAW integration and use MIDI CC).

Things I miss about the M32:

The touch sensitive knobs which show the value before you turn it! Really nice feature and I’d hoped the Arturia would have this as I think my old Beatstep had this. But not the end of the world.
Obviously Komplete Kontrol integration, I think the closest you can get with another controller is to have MIDI CC going to the first 8 macro knobs. Annoyingly you can’t just expose the Macro parameters through the “Configure” mapping in Ableton, as they change from preset to preset. Not a huge deal for me as I don’t like using the KK wrapper.

Things I don’t miss about the M32:

The clicky buttons! They’re so noisy and don’t feel nice.
The width - it’s nice having the extra keys, but the width of it makes it more awkward to use in my situation (by my side on the sofa)

I would say the Arturia integration with their own stuff is pretty basic. You can scroll through presets with the encoder, and you can choose which knobs map to which parameters in the config… and that’s it. Komplete Kontrol is much deeper in terms of the macros it exposes etc. But for me, I use plugins from lots of manufacturers (and not that much NI stuff), so having general Ableton parameter control is much more valuable than a really good deep integration into one manufacturer.

holonology · 2023-05-22T21:45:45.018Z

tdmusic:

Obviously Komplete Kontrol integration, I think the closest you can get with another controller is to have MIDI CC going to the first 8 macro knobs. Annoyingly you can’t just expose the Macro parameters through the “Configure” mapping in Ableton, as they change from preset to preset. Not a huge deal for me as I don’t like using the KK wrapper.

Yeah this is all really interesting reading having considered both, thanks for tapping it out. The Minilab3 looks great and I really like the jog wheel let’s you move around a session.

And yeah I prefer Ableton as the “driver” with all the controls mapped. I use a Novation Launchkey, and using a combination of a custom mode and the MIDI learn feature in KK, I can get most of the functions working. The one main issue is that there isn’t a mapping available for enter to select a preset, but the 49 has a space just big enough for me to put a trackpad on the keyboard which works for me.

As I mentioned elsewhere I think I’d be down with that but there are other issues. You have to remember to turn automation back on ever session load as KK (I think) reloads as inactive. This is a pain, but not as much as Kontakt which remembers the automation but not the names of the parameters. I’m considering that KK may be the lesser of the evils in this case but I need to test it more to see which grinds my gears the most! I absolutely love NI as a sound source, but I prefer Ableton as the actual driver of the session.

presteign · 2023-05-22T22:18:46.758Z

KK is such a great idea, and yet such a disappointing implementation.

I don’t know why Ableton and other DAW companies have never implemented the protocol natively. Maybe it’s NI’s licensing requirements?

muzka · 2023-05-22T22:30:40.216Z

I use the m32 for daw control in ableton and with a script I can control 16 macro nobs on whatever device I am using with the blue hand thing

I just press the midi button to switch between them

tdmusic · 2023-05-23T06:44:01.985Z

muzka:

with a script I can control 16 macro nobs on whatever device I am using with the blue hand thing

Ah yeah but the display doesn’t match the control names right? Not a huge deal granted but makes the whole setup feel a bit hacky. But yeah, you can do this, I forgot to mention it!

tdmusic · 2023-05-23T06:46:43.218Z

presteign:

KK is such a great idea, and yet such a disappointing implementation.

Yeah it feels so janky to me! The UI is so dated (you can’t even resize it I don’t think) and half my plugins won’t load on my M1 unless I run in Rosetta mode, even though the underlying plugins have been updated to M1.

Don’t really understand or have the energy to debug. In general I’m just not a fan of having to wrap plugins if it can be avoided.

muzka · 2023-05-23T06:46:50.330Z

I’m not sure if it shows macro name. Will check

tdmusic · 2023-05-23T06:47:24.489Z

holonology:

thanks for tapping it out

No worries. Happy to answer any other Qs while I have both in my possession!

holonology · 2023-05-23T08:11:39.154Z

tdmusic:

Don’t really understand or have the energy to debug. In general I’m just not a fan of having to wrap plugins if it can be avoided

Yeah, I tend to use the standalone VSTs including Kontakt which is my personal go-to within Komplete and covers about 80% of what I’m doing anyway. That does turn KK into a glorified preset browser but that still has its uses. It feeela like just as Kontakt had an update from 6-7 that KK is due an update.

I notice in another thread that others say that sometimes using other versions of an install (VST2 etc) can lead to better results with mappings so there is that option. I might have a look at that at some point. Generally I’ve stuck with M1 native stuff and if it doesn’t work I see it as a problem the manufacturer should fix rather than wasting time to sort it on my end as you say here.

muzka · 2023-05-23T08:25:19.899Z

I have been using kk recently but building my own mappings so all my synths have the same structure

Page 1 Oscs
Page 2 env
Page 3 filter
Page 4 lfos
Page 5 fx

With some synths these need more than one page and for some I swap filter around but mostly they stay the same.

I’ve been building racks in Softube modular then have a page per module also

Then I save them as a preset to drop into projects

Works ok

holonology · 2023-05-23T08:58:09.733Z

muzka:

With some synths these need more than one page and for some I swap filter around but mostly they stay the same.

This also works well enough with Kontakt Play instruments as they all follow the same structure of 8 main macros and a page of hidden stuff. And most other Kontakt instruments have limited macros. You just have to live with no names as they’re always different. I raised this with NI so they are aware of it.

holonology · 2023-05-25T07:52:41.840Z

Here’s one for you. I use a Novation LK49mk3 as my main controller. There are few downsides to this particular controller, because it’s cheap; has knobs/faders/pads, has custom programmable mappings and is super tight with Ableton out of the gate.

I currently have an LK mini alongside this. I guess one idea I have is to (potentially) get a small controller in place of the LK Mini to make the most of having 2 controllers, and I guess with me using NI software, something that works with that would be appealing.

The one downside of the LK is that it’s pretty much designed around Session View. Which of these 2 would you say integrate best with Arrangement View for quick & sporadic control alongside mouse & trackpad? The reason I ask is that for all the benefits of the LK, so I’m thinking about this from the perspective of looking into taking a 2nd controller from a different manufacturer for a different set of benefits from what the LK brings to the table.

I tend to have the 2nd keyboard constantly on the table and if I need to quickly either play something in or have an idea, I’ll grab it. And then if I’m already in arrangement view, I’ll typically go back to working with a trackpad & keyboard for editing. I also use the 2nd controller if I’m in the editing stage, but need to edit parameters of a sound or quickly adjust something I’ve already played in.

From what I’m reading and seeing, the benefit of the M32 would be quick tweaking & selecting NKS presets and tweaking parameters (though via KK software only of course.) The benefit of the Minilab would be essentially a mini version of the LK with knobs, faders and whatnot but with that jogwheel for more Session View control. The Arturia integration while welcome wouldn’t be a big factor in the decision.

See why you reckon anyway…

tdmusic · 2023-05-25T09:50:14.029Z

I guess the main difference in this context would be that the Arturia’s ableton integration supports changing track/device parameters with the name and value of the parameter showing on the little screen. The NI will only do this for NI KK devices, although you can make it auto map to the first 8 macros in ableton with a custom script - but just in generic midi mode so you won’t see parameter names.

I quite like being able to see which parameter I’m adjusting on the keyboard so I don’t need to think as much but this might not bother you. TBH I’ve not used the encoder integration much so can’t say how useful that is - I’d guess in arrange mode a lot of stuff is honestly just quicker with the mouse regardless.

I think it still comes down to whether you value deep integration with NI stuff or Ableton stuff more. I guess if you’re not bothered about what you see on the little screen, and you don’t mind using KK, the M32 probably offers more because you can control ableton macros with the user script thing. I don’t think you can so easily change tracks/devices from it though.

Obviously other things to keep in mind are the Minilab has faders, pads and MiDI out which I think clinched it for me!

peaceful · 2023-05-25T10:04:22.467Z

Don’t forget to firmware update the Minilab 3. They updated it so you can hold shift and long press ‘Pad’ so the arp and transport controls are always accessible without pressing shift. I find that super useful.

holonology · 2023-05-25T10:30:25.213Z

Food for thought thanks. Possibly to the extent that I may even stick with what I have! The Minilab does look great though. In terms of what I have I think I’d need to run through creating a few tracks in KK predominantly. If that worked then yeah it might be worth a KK controller for that specific purpose.

tdmusic · 2023-05-25T12:28:13.111Z

holonology:

If that worked then yeah it might be worth a KK controller for that specific purpose.

Yeah TBH I am actually considering keeping the M32 for potential KK usage, as I got it super cheap (take a look on eBay, they do go for very little quite often, mine was £40).

I would say that for sound design, one of the bigger keyboards with a proper screen and especially dedicated page/bank buttons would be nice, scrolling through the banks with the M32’s clicky little arrows is a bit annoying, but for macro access it’s fine (especially with the touch sensitive knobs) and honestly I think sound design is often easier with the mouse on complex plugins!

holonology · 2023-05-25T15:43:11.050Z

That’s actually a good point. I should have mentioned I am less of a sound designer (unless it’s sample mangling) When it comes to synths, I’m more likely to edit things like the basic preset patch (hence why I enjoy KK in principle) and then I will typically take that lightly modded preset and run automation and automated effects on it via Ableton automation lanes. I guess the key criteria is ease of skipping around. The one thing the LK has going for it is that there is no problem to (for example) skip between devices in the rack with the blue hand, which most of the budget controllers don’t do. But if I can move up and down to select tracks with a jogwheel setup in Arrangement View, then that would be a useful addition as this is something I don’t have. To my earlier point about presets I’m currently looking at switching from Pigments which I sold to their preset collection for a greatest hits of Arturia sounds, including selected Pigments patches.