Automapping MIDI controllers (for Arturia V Collection)

holonology · 2023-04-29T10:36:10.053Z

Small update. So as of the moment, I’m still investigating the differences and pros/cons for the non-NI controller I use. As mentioned, the slight issue with Kontakt not remembering parameter names is an issue NI are aware of, and when this happens I tend to think of it as a bonus if this can be fixed.

Following @PeteSasqwax’s other comments, I thought I’d have a crack at using Komplete Kontrol instead of Kontakt to see how that behaves in Ableton (VST3/M1 native in case that’s useful). KK does have one advantage in that any parameters you touch in the software automatically add themsleves to the KK device in Ableton and the names are not forgotten on reload, which is a big advantage/time-saver. The only slight hiccup I’m seeing with this one is that when you re-load your project, you have to remember to click re-enable automation, otherwise the parameters you changed will either not move or reset themselves to zero. A little searching shows this is a known issue, but I’ve asked for an update to see where this is at. If that is solved somewhat, I can see me flipping over to KK for most things (and that would make the M32 a great 2nd controller for casual jamming) but I want to road test it extra carefully first.

Ryan · 2023-04-29T14:03:24.712Z

Mad respect for diving in so deeply in this inquiry.

In meme format, it would be like:
OP: I have a question
@holonology : …and i took that personally.

Love to see it on the forum!

holonology · 2023-04-29T20:14:39.371Z

Ryan:

@holonology : …and i took that personally.

Story of my life haha

handed · 2023-04-29T20:21:45.646Z

If you use an Arturia MiniLab Mk3 controller, you’ll get integration with V Collection synths. Eight macro controls auto-mapped.

PeteSasqwax · 2023-04-29T21:33:56.811Z

This is beautiful work, thank you!

tdmusic · 2023-05-17T20:50:42.764Z

Interestingly, it turns out Arturia stuff also supports NKS and exposes similar macros via NI Komplete Kontrol - I picked up a M32 dirt cheap off eBay as a portable controller and was pleasantly surprised to see a bunch of Arturia plugins available in KK.

(Edit: just read the thread and the OP mentioned this already)

However there are caveats, you have to run the plugin inside (the somewhat clunky!) Komplete Kontrol - I understand why but not a big fan of wrappers - and I’m unable to load some plugins such as Pigments from the browser in KK due to being on an M1 Mac - I guess something needs updating. There was a confusing post on the Arturia forums suggesting the KK presets are tied to the VST2 version or something? Like I say, all a bit clunky. Whether Arturia will keep updating the NKS support, I have no clue!

The M32 itself seems pretty nice, the touch sensitive knobs so you can see what you’re about to control are nice. Keys feel decent and it looks and feels lovely. Worth the £40 I paid!

tdmusic · 2023-05-17T20:56:58.379Z

holonology:

uhe stuff

Does eg Diva show in your preset browser in KK? I can load it via the drop-down menu but can’t see its presets and the parameter are all in default “page 1, page 2…” mapping so it looks like KK doesn’t realise it’s an NKS plugin? I tried installing the NKS previews from u-he but this hasn’t changed anything

holonology · 2023-05-17T21:04:37.353Z

tdmusic:

Does eg Diva show in your preset browser in KK? I can load it via the drop-down menu but can’t see its presets and the parameter are all in default “page 1, page 2…” mapping so it looks like KK doesn’t realise it’s an NKS plugin? I tried installing the NKS previews from u-he but this hasn’t changed anything

Yes this shows up OK for me from what I can tell. One thng I have done with KK before today is to completely delete the database and restart the computer. I had an issue where plugins I’d deleted (and rescanned) were still in the preset browser despite being deleted. Worth a shot? I also did the thing you describe where you load in a specific file to get the Diva presets to play in KK.

tdmusic · 2023-05-18T07:46:18.260Z

Not sure what is going on but I can’t get Diva to show in KK – not to worry as I don’t think I’ll be using Komplete Kontrol, I just dislike the whole wrapper aspect too much.

TBH pretty disappointed in how little the M32 can control in Ableton if you are not using KK! Seems like there’s no control over device parameters at all, which is a shame.

I might hold on to it just because I got it so cheap, but am probably going to look at either Arturia or Akai instead as it sucks to not be able to control anything in Ableton (I know you can use a user control script to always have the first 8 macros map, but you lose the display functionality)

tdmusic · 2023-05-18T13:12:55.662Z

Realised I had £20 in Andertons loyalty points so bought a black MiniLab mk3. Will be interesting to compare to the M32. I think it’ll fit my needs much better as it integrates with Ableton’s devices properly - I don’t use NI stuff that often tbh. Also it has a physical MIDI out.

I’ll keep the M32 though, I’m sure it’ll find some usage for something!

Edit: Yeah the MiniLab is a better fit for me, I’d say. It’s not perfect, but it has a much better Ableton integration. Can’t get over the fact that the M32 one doesn’t let you control device parameters (unless you use Komplete Kontrol or disable the DAW integration and use MIDI CC).

Things I miss about the M32:

The touch sensitive knobs which show the value before you turn it! Really nice feature and I’d hoped the Arturia would have this as I think my old Beatstep had this. But not the end of the world.
Obviously Komplete Kontrol integration, I think the closest you can get with another controller is to have MIDI CC going to the first 8 macro knobs. Annoyingly you can’t just expose the Macro parameters through the “Configure” mapping in Ableton, as they change from preset to preset. Not a huge deal for me as I don’t like using the KK wrapper.

Things I don’t miss about the M32:

The clicky buttons! They’re so noisy and don’t feel nice.
The width - it’s nice having the extra keys, but the width of it makes it more awkward to use in my situation (by my side on the sofa)

I would say the Arturia integration with their own stuff is pretty basic. You can scroll through presets with the encoder, and you can choose which knobs map to which parameters in the config… and that’s it. Komplete Kontrol is much deeper in terms of the macros it exposes etc. But for me, I use plugins from lots of manufacturers (and not that much NI stuff), so having general Ableton parameter control is much more valuable than a really good deep integration into one manufacturer.

holonology · 2023-05-22T21:45:45.018Z

tdmusic:

Obviously Komplete Kontrol integration, I think the closest you can get with another controller is to have MIDI CC going to the first 8 macro knobs. Annoyingly you can’t just expose the Macro parameters through the “Configure” mapping in Ableton, as they change from preset to preset. Not a huge deal for me as I don’t like using the KK wrapper.

Yeah this is all really interesting reading having considered both, thanks for tapping it out. The Minilab3 looks great and I really like the jog wheel let’s you move around a session.

And yeah I prefer Ableton as the “driver” with all the controls mapped. I use a Novation Launchkey, and using a combination of a custom mode and the MIDI learn feature in KK, I can get most of the functions working. The one main issue is that there isn’t a mapping available for enter to select a preset, but the 49 has a space just big enough for me to put a trackpad on the keyboard which works for me.

As I mentioned elsewhere I think I’d be down with that but there are other issues. You have to remember to turn automation back on ever session load as KK (I think) reloads as inactive. This is a pain, but not as much as Kontakt which remembers the automation but not the names of the parameters. I’m considering that KK may be the lesser of the evils in this case but I need to test it more to see which grinds my gears the most! I absolutely love NI as a sound source, but I prefer Ableton as the actual driver of the session.

presteign · 2023-05-22T22:18:46.758Z

KK is such a great idea, and yet such a disappointing implementation.

I don’t know why Ableton and other DAW companies have never implemented the protocol natively. Maybe it’s NI’s licensing requirements?

muzka · 2023-05-22T22:30:40.216Z

I use the m32 for daw control in ableton and with a script I can control 16 macro nobs on whatever device I am using with the blue hand thing

I just press the midi button to switch between them

tdmusic · 2023-05-23T06:44:01.985Z

muzka:

with a script I can control 16 macro nobs on whatever device I am using with the blue hand thing

Ah yeah but the display doesn’t match the control names right? Not a huge deal granted but makes the whole setup feel a bit hacky. But yeah, you can do this, I forgot to mention it!

tdmusic · 2023-05-23T06:46:43.218Z

presteign:

KK is such a great idea, and yet such a disappointing implementation.

Yeah it feels so janky to me! The UI is so dated (you can’t even resize it I don’t think) and half my plugins won’t load on my M1 unless I run in Rosetta mode, even though the underlying plugins have been updated to M1.

Don’t really understand or have the energy to debug. In general I’m just not a fan of having to wrap plugins if it can be avoided.

muzka · 2023-05-23T06:46:50.330Z

I’m not sure if it shows macro name. Will check

tdmusic · 2023-05-23T06:47:24.489Z

holonology:

thanks for tapping it out

No worries. Happy to answer any other Qs while I have both in my possession!

holonology · 2023-05-23T08:11:39.154Z

tdmusic:

Don’t really understand or have the energy to debug. In general I’m just not a fan of having to wrap plugins if it can be avoided

Yeah, I tend to use the standalone VSTs including Kontakt which is my personal go-to within Komplete and covers about 80% of what I’m doing anyway. That does turn KK into a glorified preset browser but that still has its uses. It feeela like just as Kontakt had an update from 6-7 that KK is due an update.

I notice in another thread that others say that sometimes using other versions of an install (VST2 etc) can lead to better results with mappings so there is that option. I might have a look at that at some point. Generally I’ve stuck with M1 native stuff and if it doesn’t work I see it as a problem the manufacturer should fix rather than wasting time to sort it on my end as you say here.

muzka · 2023-05-23T08:25:19.899Z

I have been using kk recently but building my own mappings so all my synths have the same structure

Page 1 Oscs
Page 2 env
Page 3 filter
Page 4 lfos
Page 5 fx

With some synths these need more than one page and for some I swap filter around but mostly they stay the same.

I’ve been building racks in Softube modular then have a page per module also

Then I save them as a preset to drop into projects

Works ok

holonology · 2023-05-23T08:58:09.733Z

muzka:

With some synths these need more than one page and for some I swap filter around but mostly they stay the same.

This also works well enough with Kontakt Play instruments as they all follow the same structure of 8 main macros and a page of hidden stuff. And most other Kontakt instruments have limited macros. You just have to live with no names as they’re always different. I raised this with NI so they are aware of it.