Attack?

TrabanT · 2014-07-10T18:30:22.000Z

""xmit"":

thing is, - I’m really not being flippant here - where do you stop, with all this…with any product / instrument to be fair? How much is not enough ? How much is too much ?

Sure another LFO would be nice, for example, but ultimately I still just keep thinking “it’s a drum machine”. Yes it’s relatively expensive ( not compared to a s/h 808 or 909 though…where’s yer LFO on those… ? ) but you’re still getting a lot for your money. imho.

This isn’t an elektron fanboy defend-at-all-costs post btw, just maybe a slightly more rounded view ? I do sometimes wonder if a lot of this ‘upset’ with “it won’t do this & it won’t do that” comes from the paradigm shift caused by the world of software, where you get a gazillion features for £1.50, or free. People have come to expect an awful lot for not a lot of money…?

As someone who’s been using technology to create music since the mid 1980s I’m just amazed by what you get for your money right now in terms of hardware. It’s a golden age.

REALLY well said … excellent points made!

TrabanT · 2014-07-10T18:32:08.000Z

""oldgearguy"":

[quote=“Elektronot”][quote=“Snuffy”]- the only limitation is the imagination.

The only limitation is convention.[/quote]
Apparently, the only limitation is a single LFO …[/quote]
single LFO …

LOL !!!

subq · 2014-07-10T19:38:56.000Z

""xmit"":

Sure another LFO would be nice, for example, but ultimately I still just keep thinking “it’s a drum machine”. Yes it’s relatively expensive ( not compared to a s/h 808 or 909 though…where’s yer LFO on those… ? ) but you’re still getting a lot for your money. imho.

This isn’t an elektron fanboy defend-at-all-costs post btw, just maybe a slightly more rounded view ? I do sometimes wonder if a lot of this ‘upset’ with “it won’t do this & it won’t do that” comes from the paradigm shift caused by the world of software, where you get a gazillion features for £1.50, or free. People have come to expect an awful lot for not a lot of money…?

thing is, we have to compare it to current offerings and technology…the AR is a fairly expensive drum machine so it is no surprise that people are expecting quite a bit

as far as pushing the features…I say it should never stop…keep pushing it as far as it can go

as far as the LFO, another LFO really isn’t something outlandish to want on a fairly expensive drum machine, it allows you to mix the beat up a bit and can be much less tedious than trying to plock all the steps…simple usage case scenario, one LFO to a parameter that deals with volume and then another to a parameter that deals with pitch…this is pretty basic in regards to a drum beat too

yes, I realize that some other drum machines are not much to behold and people are making tunes with them…many of those drum machines are also getting “treatments” though

even when I use the cheap volca beats because I like some of the sounds, I am usually throwing some LFOs at it via the OT

P.S. this was not a contrarian reply to your comment, it was just another comment added on

Elektronot · 2014-07-10T20:39:22.000Z

""subq"":

as far as the LFO, another LFO really isn’t something outlandish to want on a fairly expensive drum machine, it allows you to mix the beat up a bit and can be much less tedious than trying to plock all the steps…simple usage case scenario, one LFO to a parameter that deals with volume and then another to a parameter that deals with pitch…this is pretty basic in regards to a drum beat too

You can tap or step pitch in with chromatic mode

vasculator · 2014-07-10T22:03:57.000Z

xmit nailed it honestly. at a certain point you have to accept that these machines aren’t going to immediately have every feature you can imagine despite the “high price”. nobody would ever ship a product if this was the case. in development you have to set limits and prioritize what gets fixed/built.

tonight · 2014-07-11T05:29:41.000Z

""North"":

[quote=“tonight”]Go buy a roland if you want “standard” features

nice ! I really thank you for the advice.
[/quote]
well the " just give us a…" demand and anger emoticons sent a clear message that you are not
open to learning something different.
so I gave you the most appropriate reply.
you don’t like the reply, don’t post like a spoiled bratt.

subq · 2014-07-11T05:52:31.000Z

""Elektronot"":

You can tap or step pitch in with chromatic mode

Yes, but that’s not the same as an LFO, you can also plock steps…I think it even records changes in live record mode (unless I’m just mixing up my elektron gear, I have a bit heh)…point is those aren’t the same as using an LFO.
Don’t get me wrong, I really like my AR and I have no regrets on the purchase…I’m saying I would like more LFOs, I’m used to using them on my A4 and OT…there is no reason there shouldn’t be more than 1.
I’m going to go out on a limb and say I imagine we will see more in an update.

XanaX · 2014-07-11T07:00:04.000Z

Getting back to envelopes, it’s indeed crucial imo to have access to AD (Attack-Decay) as well as AHDS (Attack-Hold-Decay-Sustain) as these two types of envelopes are the most adapted to percussive sounds for shaping & layering. Of course if the sample layer could have it’s own independent envelope that would be incredibly useful as well imo…

stutech · 2014-07-11T10:29:02.000Z

Throwing LFOs to a volca beats via the octatrack? You mean MIDI CC control via LFO perhaps? If so, what prevents you from doing the same with the AR? All parameters can be remote controlled via MIDI

amiga303 · 2014-07-11T10:46:59.000Z

""Smoof"":

Its not about liveliness. Its about high speed modulations like additional envelopes or tremolos/vibratos. Theres no dedicated env for the sample volume for example. And if i didnt get everything wrong the sample functionality was designed to add attacks and dirt to the analog sounds. How are you supposed to do that with a start and end point (Sometimes even dont know what that looping stuff is all about in a drum machine, though i got some interesting results from it)? So one LFO is gone… What if i want the pitch of my bassdrum to decrease slowly after the initial kick? This list goes on forever…
Has never been an issue on the machinedrum since it got 16 LFOs and theyre freely routable.

XanaX
Getting back to envelopes, it’s indeed crucial imo to have access to AD (Attack-Decay) as well as AHDS (Attack-Hold-Decay-Sustain) as these two types of envelopes are the most adapted to percussive sounds for shaping & layering. Of course if the sample layer could have it’s own independent envelope that would be incredibly useful as well imo…

that nails it.
I like AR a lot.
alas, 1 LFO still a lot to discover - well… lets say I dont mind waiting a few months for more LFOs
alas, the pads, I can use my own pad controller.

there is just one thing that severely seems to deserve optimization:
shaping fast volume modulations seems to be too tricky. fine tune almost impossible.

""vasculator"":

at a certain point you have to accept that these machines aren’t going to immediately have every feature you can imagine despite the “high price”. nobody would ever ship a product if this was the case. in development you have to set limits and prioritize what gets fixed/built.

agree. we just try to influence elektrons priority chain. overbridge might be at the top right now as it surely is a demanding project.
usually development will concentrate on cleaning up bugs first after shipping, it will take a while until we see new features I suppose.

subq · 2014-07-11T18:28:35.000Z

""tsutek"":

Throwing LFOs to a volca beats via the octatrack? You mean MIDI CC control via LFO perhaps? If so, what prevents you from doing the same with the AR? All parameters can be remote controlled via MIDI

because I didn’t really want to go that route…I wanted to keep sequencing and everything in the AR…not to mention the AR uses a MIDI channel for every voice/track

on the Volcas, I’m actually sequencing with the OT so setting up the CCs was a given…it only uses one midi channel too

there is no reason at all anyone should object to more LFOs on the AR, it’s no skin off their back if they don’t want to use them…on the flip side it would make the unit better and tons of people would use them

tonight · 2014-07-12T10:45:22.000Z

""North"":

[quote=“tonight”][quote=“North”][quote=“tonight”]Go buy a roland if you want “standard” features

nice ! I really thank you for the advice.
[/quote]
well the " just give us a…" demand and anger emoticons sent a clear message that you are not
open to learning something different.
so I gave you the most appropriate reply.
you don’t like the reply, don’t post like a spoiled bratt.[/quote]
GFY.
[/quote]
that’s all you got?
but you do have:
no idea.
no skill
no brains
have you:
ever got out of your bedroom?
ever played a gig?
ever been in a band and worked with other people?
ever recorded anything professionally?
done anything worth noting with music?
no no no no no
this will obviously way to much for you to cope with but
when your reply consists of telling me to go fuck myself
then your on buddy

stutech · 2014-07-12T11:03:09.000Z

[quote=“” subq""]
…

there is no reason at all anyone should object to more LFOs on the AR, it’s no skin off their back if they don’t want to use them…on the flip side it would make the unit better and tons of people would use them
[/quote]

I am by no means objecting additional features, but I also don’t know what the AR architechture is capable of. Adding more LFOs might be technically impossible for all I know. It’s an analog digital hybrid after all, I have no idea how much “headroom” in terms of DSP power and system memory there is (the machinedrum for ex is purely digital so might for ex. have beefier DSP/system memory capabilities) still remaining to exploit by Elektron.

Elektronot · 2014-07-12T19:05:36.000Z

""subq"":

there is no reason at all anyone should object to more LFOs on the AR, it’s no skin off their back if they don’t want to use them…on the flip side it would make the unit better and tons of people would use them

Rather see new machines. Robust analog drums should be the priority.

subq · 2014-07-13T00:11:06.000Z

who said it’s an either/or? …let’s see what elektron comes up with

Elektronot · 2014-07-13T00:27:42.000Z

I don’t know who said that? Yeah, I guess if we were making are own drum machines we wouldn’t need Elektron

Elektronot · 2014-07-13T00:31:54.000Z

""XanaX"":

Getting back to envelopes, it’s indeed crucial imo to have access to AD (Attack-Decay) as well as AHDS (Attack-Hold-Decay-Sustain) as these two types of envelopes are the most adapted to percussive sounds for shaping & layering. Of course if the sample layer could have it’s own independent envelope that would be incredibly useful as well imo…

plus 1

amiga303 · 2014-07-17T07:54:48.000Z

just adding an insight, most of u probably got that.
hold=AUTO equates to hold = trig length.
aiming at very short sounds, AUTO and tiny trig lengths work better for me.
as stated by others I still feel the AMP env lacks fine control for short values, eg. I am fiddling around between 0-10 of attack/decay. imho it should be possible to generate click sounds with the lowest decay and hold values.
imho another envelope type for short sounds would do it (percussive env, exp curve, I dont know).
and yeah, sample start/end lack fine control for short sounds (eg. transient shaping). of course I can just import short samples. I am not 100% percent sure a separate sample env would not make things unnecessary complicated.

subq · 2014-07-17T19:12:39.000Z

^ agreed on the “click” sounds in relation to env

danfreshbc · 2020-07-05T00:02:19.100Z

I agree with the above on lack of ADSR… and no seperate sample envelope

If you’re really serious about drum synthesis (and perhaps the key factor here is that this isn’t really the focus of rytm), you need at very least the ability to shape the transient, the shape of the decay, sustain level relative to the transient and release for tail

If you’ve got no seperate sample envelope you cant even ‘fill the gaps‘ with a sample

If i want a punchy controllable transient I can’t have a sustained body as this is at the moment. And I can’t use the sample for the body (to make up for lack of envelope params), or the sample for the transient.

Let’s say I decided to try and do that, I dial in a nice sample and then adjust the hold and decay to get just the samples transient to overlay the synth. I can’t do this because there’s no seperate envelope… both the synth and sample have to have the same shape

People defending this… I’m not attacking the rytm but as someone serious about very detailed sound design, I’ve been horrified to discover no adsr… I knew there was no ‘snap’ or transient boost setting like on the tempest, but to be honest I haven’t seen a full featured synth for many years without adsr. And a drum synth needs that detail more than a usual synth arguably. You’re dealing with such tiny fragments of time

I’m actually on the verge of selling mine. Though I love overbridge (in theory I’m having problems getting mine working sometimes though), sequencer and ability to store and transfer samples in kits

If I was to describe my dream synth engine for this would be

Attack (with ability to shape curve or at least select lin/exp/- exp)
Hold (hold is awesome if it comes with everything else)
Decay (with ability to shape as above)
Release

And then seperate envelope for sample layer
And ideally this level of control also for the noise layer and ability to have pink noise instead of white would be great too

Also transient shaping and eq would finish off what I would use in a plugin to make a modern synthetic drum sound (check out kick2 for example)