Attack?

amiga303 · 2014-07-10T11:10:18.000Z

""xmit"":

Sure another LFO would be nice, for example, but ultimately I still just keep thinking “it’s a drum machine”.

I like the AR too. its a good machine. honestly I havent explored it enough of it to make dominant claims whats missing and what not.
plus, whats right for me, is not what is right for others. elektrons success is based on a good mix of programmability and simple UIs.
clearly AR is NOT a drum machine imho. its a full blown analog drumsynth and has got a fair price for being that.
the power of analog sound generation is not based on just having “fat sounds”. the power comes from the fact analog synths are much likely to “always sound interesting” when tweaking whereas in that 1.50$ synth u have a lot of params but u’ll have a hard time to narrow down the interesting parts. one reason is better synth design due to the fact u will think more when adding costly components and another reason is that analog gear does not have computation problems, it will act as natural on sounds the developer has not planned whereas in software developers need to set limits to keep performance in order.
sorry… got a bit lengthy

oldgearguy · 2014-07-10T11:50:43.000Z

""Elektronot"":

[quote=“Snuffy”]- the only limitation is the imagination.

The only limitation is convention.[/quote]
Apparently, the only limitation is a single LFO …

owensands · 2014-07-10T13:31:40.000Z

""Smoof"":

I think the envelope is fine. Wondering why not even more people are concerned about that single LFO thing…

So far I don’t mind it either (only had it a week though). Just dial the hold and decay down and you will get desired results and play with the two. More env. curves are welcome though!

owensands · 2014-07-10T13:37:22.000Z

""/mr"":

That nice envelope is still the standard ADSR envelope system, which easily fits most synth needs - but not all percussive needs or sample playback needs.

With an AHD or AHR envelope like in the Rytm, several behaviors could be desired depending on how you’d like the sound to react when playing. Percussive sounds and sustained sounds (like typically played on a keyboard) would need different behaviors; different reactions on the trig Length parameter; the Hold parameter could be interpreted in different ways, etc.

And that’s why you should have designed it with a digital filter and proper ADSR on the sample layer. Just sayin… Still love this beast though.

jamrod · 2014-07-10T14:41:55.000Z

At first I thought the single LFO would be an issue. But I’m finding that parameter locks are really enough to get sounds feeling alive.

Smoof · 2014-07-10T15:08:33.000Z

""jamrod"":

At first I thought the single LFO would be an issue. But I’m finding that parameter locks are really enough to get sounds feeling alive.

Its not about liveliness. Its about high speed modulations like additional envelopes or tremolos/vibratos. Theres no dedicated env for the sample volume for example. And if i didnt get everything wrong the sample functionality was designed to add attacks and dirt to the analog sounds. How are you supposed to do that with a start and end point (Sometimes even dont know what that looping stuff is all about in a drum machine, though i got some interesting results from it)? So one LFO is gone… What if i want the pitch of my bassdrum to decrease slowly after the initial kick? This list goes on forever…
Has never been an issue on the machinedrum since it got 16 LFOs and theyre freely routable.

owensands · 2014-07-10T15:13:43.000Z

""Smoof"":

[quote=“jamrod”]At first I thought the single LFO would be an issue. But I’m finding that parameter locks are really enough to get sounds feeling alive.

Its not about liveliness. Its about high speed modulations like adittional envelopes. Theres no dedicated env for the sample volume for example. And if i didnt get everything wrong the sample functionality was designed to add attacks and dirt to the analog sounds. How are you supposed to do that with a start and end point (Even dont know what that looping stuff is all about in a drum machine)? What if i want the pitch of my bassdrum to decrease slowly after the initial kick? This list goes on forever…
Has never been an issue on the machinedrum since it got 16 LFOs and theyre freely routable.[/quote]
I brought this(env curves on sample layer) up on this forum, before everyone even got one, and I was berated to hell and back. Wonder if they will ever add it. Digital filter too on the sample layer would just seal the deal.

The looping works good if you dedicate a whole voice to the sample. Try a single cycle waveform(there are a couple in the factory samples) and bring the decay and hold down. Then you can play it like a synth.

Smoof · 2014-07-10T15:20:46.000Z

""owensands"":

I brought this(env curves on sample layer) up on this forum, before everyone even got one, and I was berated to hell and back. Wonder if they will ever add it. Digital filter too on the sample layer would just seal the deal.

The looping works good if you dedicate a whole voice to the sample. Try a single cycle waveform(there are a couple in the factory samples) and bring the decay and hold down. Then you can play it like a synth.

It is the first machine from elektron where i can see a sound and want to reach out and grab it, but i cant. Even worse; its one of the nicest sounding machines i ever encountered. The ugly thing is i dont find any workaround for the missing LFOs.

Elektronot · 2014-07-10T18:22:56.000Z

""oldgearguy"":

[quote=“Elektronot”][quote=“Snuffy”]- the only limitation is the imagination.

The only limitation is convention.[/quote]
Apparently, the only limitation is a single LFO …[/quote]
maybe drums aren’t your thing

TrabanT · 2014-07-10T18:30:22.000Z

""xmit"":

thing is, - I’m really not being flippant here - where do you stop, with all this…with any product / instrument to be fair? How much is not enough ? How much is too much ?

Sure another LFO would be nice, for example, but ultimately I still just keep thinking “it’s a drum machine”. Yes it’s relatively expensive ( not compared to a s/h 808 or 909 though…where’s yer LFO on those… ? ) but you’re still getting a lot for your money. imho.

This isn’t an elektron fanboy defend-at-all-costs post btw, just maybe a slightly more rounded view ? I do sometimes wonder if a lot of this ‘upset’ with “it won’t do this & it won’t do that” comes from the paradigm shift caused by the world of software, where you get a gazillion features for £1.50, or free. People have come to expect an awful lot for not a lot of money…?

As someone who’s been using technology to create music since the mid 1980s I’m just amazed by what you get for your money right now in terms of hardware. It’s a golden age.

REALLY well said … excellent points made!

TrabanT · 2014-07-10T18:32:08.000Z

""oldgearguy"":

[quote=“Elektronot”][quote=“Snuffy”]- the only limitation is the imagination.

The only limitation is convention.[/quote]
Apparently, the only limitation is a single LFO …[/quote]
single LFO …

LOL !!!

subq · 2014-07-10T19:38:56.000Z

""xmit"":

Sure another LFO would be nice, for example, but ultimately I still just keep thinking “it’s a drum machine”. Yes it’s relatively expensive ( not compared to a s/h 808 or 909 though…where’s yer LFO on those… ? ) but you’re still getting a lot for your money. imho.

This isn’t an elektron fanboy defend-at-all-costs post btw, just maybe a slightly more rounded view ? I do sometimes wonder if a lot of this ‘upset’ with “it won’t do this & it won’t do that” comes from the paradigm shift caused by the world of software, where you get a gazillion features for £1.50, or free. People have come to expect an awful lot for not a lot of money…?

thing is, we have to compare it to current offerings and technology…the AR is a fairly expensive drum machine so it is no surprise that people are expecting quite a bit

as far as pushing the features…I say it should never stop…keep pushing it as far as it can go

as far as the LFO, another LFO really isn’t something outlandish to want on a fairly expensive drum machine, it allows you to mix the beat up a bit and can be much less tedious than trying to plock all the steps…simple usage case scenario, one LFO to a parameter that deals with volume and then another to a parameter that deals with pitch…this is pretty basic in regards to a drum beat too

yes, I realize that some other drum machines are not much to behold and people are making tunes with them…many of those drum machines are also getting “treatments” though

even when I use the cheap volca beats because I like some of the sounds, I am usually throwing some LFOs at it via the OT

P.S. this was not a contrarian reply to your comment, it was just another comment added on

Elektronot · 2014-07-10T20:39:22.000Z

""subq"":

as far as the LFO, another LFO really isn’t something outlandish to want on a fairly expensive drum machine, it allows you to mix the beat up a bit and can be much less tedious than trying to plock all the steps…simple usage case scenario, one LFO to a parameter that deals with volume and then another to a parameter that deals with pitch…this is pretty basic in regards to a drum beat too

You can tap or step pitch in with chromatic mode

vasculator · 2014-07-10T22:03:57.000Z

xmit nailed it honestly. at a certain point you have to accept that these machines aren’t going to immediately have every feature you can imagine despite the “high price”. nobody would ever ship a product if this was the case. in development you have to set limits and prioritize what gets fixed/built.

tonight · 2014-07-11T05:29:41.000Z

""North"":

[quote=“tonight”]Go buy a roland if you want “standard” features

nice ! I really thank you for the advice.
[/quote]
well the " just give us a…" demand and anger emoticons sent a clear message that you are not
open to learning something different.
so I gave you the most appropriate reply.
you don’t like the reply, don’t post like a spoiled bratt.

subq · 2014-07-11T05:52:31.000Z

""Elektronot"":

You can tap or step pitch in with chromatic mode

Yes, but that’s not the same as an LFO, you can also plock steps…I think it even records changes in live record mode (unless I’m just mixing up my elektron gear, I have a bit heh)…point is those aren’t the same as using an LFO.
Don’t get me wrong, I really like my AR and I have no regrets on the purchase…I’m saying I would like more LFOs, I’m used to using them on my A4 and OT…there is no reason there shouldn’t be more than 1.
I’m going to go out on a limb and say I imagine we will see more in an update.

XanaX · 2014-07-11T07:00:04.000Z

Getting back to envelopes, it’s indeed crucial imo to have access to AD (Attack-Decay) as well as AHDS (Attack-Hold-Decay-Sustain) as these two types of envelopes are the most adapted to percussive sounds for shaping & layering. Of course if the sample layer could have it’s own independent envelope that would be incredibly useful as well imo…

stutech · 2014-07-11T10:29:02.000Z

Throwing LFOs to a volca beats via the octatrack? You mean MIDI CC control via LFO perhaps? If so, what prevents you from doing the same with the AR? All parameters can be remote controlled via MIDI

amiga303 · 2014-07-11T10:46:59.000Z

""Smoof"":

Its not about liveliness. Its about high speed modulations like additional envelopes or tremolos/vibratos. Theres no dedicated env for the sample volume for example. And if i didnt get everything wrong the sample functionality was designed to add attacks and dirt to the analog sounds. How are you supposed to do that with a start and end point (Sometimes even dont know what that looping stuff is all about in a drum machine, though i got some interesting results from it)? So one LFO is gone… What if i want the pitch of my bassdrum to decrease slowly after the initial kick? This list goes on forever…
Has never been an issue on the machinedrum since it got 16 LFOs and theyre freely routable.

XanaX
Getting back to envelopes, it’s indeed crucial imo to have access to AD (Attack-Decay) as well as AHDS (Attack-Hold-Decay-Sustain) as these two types of envelopes are the most adapted to percussive sounds for shaping & layering. Of course if the sample layer could have it’s own independent envelope that would be incredibly useful as well imo…

that nails it.
I like AR a lot.
alas, 1 LFO still a lot to discover - well… lets say I dont mind waiting a few months for more LFOs
alas, the pads, I can use my own pad controller.

there is just one thing that severely seems to deserve optimization:
shaping fast volume modulations seems to be too tricky. fine tune almost impossible.

""vasculator"":

at a certain point you have to accept that these machines aren’t going to immediately have every feature you can imagine despite the “high price”. nobody would ever ship a product if this was the case. in development you have to set limits and prioritize what gets fixed/built.

agree. we just try to influence elektrons priority chain. overbridge might be at the top right now as it surely is a demanding project.
usually development will concentrate on cleaning up bugs first after shipping, it will take a while until we see new features I suppose.

subq · 2014-07-11T18:28:35.000Z

""tsutek"":

Throwing LFOs to a volca beats via the octatrack? You mean MIDI CC control via LFO perhaps? If so, what prevents you from doing the same with the AR? All parameters can be remote controlled via MIDI

because I didn’t really want to go that route…I wanted to keep sequencing and everything in the AR…not to mention the AR uses a MIDI channel for every voice/track

on the Volcas, I’m actually sequencing with the OT so setting up the CCs was a given…it only uses one midi channel too

there is no reason at all anyone should object to more LFOs on the AR, it’s no skin off their back if they don’t want to use them…on the flip side it would make the unit better and tons of people would use them