AR Program change problem in advanced mode

I’ve got the mkii dark trinity (OT, AR, A4) and am having a blast. OT as master, AR and A4 slaved over MIDI. i’ve got the AR and A4 receiving program change messages to switch patterns on all at once from the OT. everything works perfectly, EXCEPT when i’m using the advanced pattern length on the AR to make polyrhythms.

these patterns always get queued for a sequential change rather than changing instantly at the end of the pattern. the length of the lag depends upon the CHNG length set in the master.

Of course i know that if I set my master length to INF and the CHNG to OFF, then the pattern will never change. so when making polyrhythms i usually set the master to INF and the CHNG to 16. this works as expected when manually changing the patterns on the AR itself, in sequential mode. but when receiving a MIDI prog change message, instead of changing instantly at the end of the OT pattern as usual, it queues it and plays for an extra 16 steps. if i set the CHNG to 64, it will wait 64 steps, etc etc. the lowest setting is 2, which changes 2 steps after the pattern changes on the other machines, which is of course out of sync.

i have tried changing the AR pattern mode to “Direct Jump,” and “Direct Start,” to no effect. it appears that MIDI prog change messages are always handled sequentially. but again, this doesn’t make program changes queue and wait a full cycle when advanced mode is not active.

worth noting that the A4 changes perfectly with each program change message, though i’m not using advanced mode on it. all machines receive prog change messages instantaneously when the OT is paused, i’ve switch back and forth as fast as possible with no percievable lag. i’ve even hooked up and extra cable enabled turbo mode between the OT and AR just to be sure. no effect.

it appears that the OT sends the program change message at the end of its pattern, FWIW.

in summary: AR pattern set in advanced mode to MASTER INF, CHNG 16, changes 16 beats behind the other 2 machines. if I don’t use advanced mode (no polyrhythms :frowning:) it works fine and changes right on time. is this a known bug? user error? I’ve read the manual inside and out and don’t see this addressed. i actually have the manuals for all these machines in pinned tabs up on my computer at all times while working with these machines.

this old thread seems to detail the same issue, it was described as an OS bug in 2016: Polyrhythm, master/slave, pattern change, etc

any help would be greatly appreciated!

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Interesting. Do you really need to set the master to INF though? Could that be the culprit? And are you talking about the master in the AR or is it he OT pattern you’re talking about when you say master?

I have been planning on using the trinity in the exact same way (all mkI’s though), and I’m almost certain I have some polyrhythms in the AR in some songs.

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I wonder what would be the solution here, don’t have OT but plan to have it in the future and this would be really frustrating.

From what I understand if you create polyrhythms but don’t set the master to INF then it basically resets after the set number of steps, so if it’s 16 then the ‘polyrhythm’ will reset every 16 steps. If it’s INF then it never resets.

Lots of program change stuff coming up lately on the forum, like stuff comes in waves…
I don’t even use them but I tested them a lot last week… :smile:
I tested in advanced mode(AR) and it changed on time, but I didn’t actually change the track lengths and master length, just put it in advanced mode…
I’ll look into it more next time I’m powered up…

I get this same problem, I’m not sure what the solution is though.

i am talking about the master on the AR, and while it doesn’t strictly need to be set on infinite, it needs to be set to a least common multiple between the polyrhythms and the time signature. when multiple polyrhythms are used, this can exceed the max setting of 1024, so it’s most practical to set it to INF.

yes this is correct. and if it resets every 16, its not a polyrhythm at all.

i just did some more testing, it behaves perfectly when the master length lines up between the OT and the AR, no matter what length. the problem appears to be caused not by just activating advanced mode, but by the AR (recv midi prog chg) master length being longer than the OT (send midi prog chg) master length. what appears to happen, is this:

1- OT send prog chg msg at the end of its pattern
2- AR recv prog chg but its pattern isn’t finished, so it queues it sequentially, and changes after a number of steps set in master CHNG parameter
3- OT switches to next pattern seamlessly (and A4 which is slaved as well)
4- AR now x steps behind with x=CHNG parameter

basically this is coming down to the fact that the AR only handles prog change messages sequentially. what is needed here is an option to handle prog change messages like “direct jump” or “direct start”, rather than being stuck in sequential. some kind of “advanced mode” for prog change message handling. another thread with the same issue, but slightly different implementation: Program change messages not handled as expected

bump for solutions

another bump a month later

Has someone tried it the other way around, when AR or A4 sends out the program changes? Just to verify if the problem is bound to a single machine OS or is a generic one …

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I did test and confirm this and made a note to file a bug report but haven’t done it yet, also had trouble with advanced mode patterns not changing right in chain mode…

Same problem here, im using the rytm (mk2) as master, and the a4 (mk1) works, but the octatrack (mk1) has a 1 bar delay when i change the patterns, any solution??

no solution but to work around it. I submitted a support ticket and staff said they would “consider” fixing it. perhaps you could do the same as it is a widely documented issue on the forums and they may take more interest of they hear from more people.

I’ve got the mk2 trinity, i normally am using the A4 for polyrhythms and works ok,
Might go test the AR because I reckon my setup would be different to most,
because I make my program changes go through ableton,
so might be good to if that makes a difference and gets the same results.
Give me a few minutes…

Edit: yeah the Rytm does change late when set to inf…
but have the same late change on the A4
When I set the AR Len and change to 64 it works as expected.
That’s what I normally set it at because I want it to restart like a polymeter
A pattern that just cycles forever doesn’t make much sense for my type of music anyhow

I haven’t had the trinity that long and I have honestly just been using it in a simplified way,
Because when I first set it up I had trouble understanding the changes I just set it all to 64

But I’ve just spent a bit of time testing different change and lengths
and I didn’t realise that it’s not working correctly and thought it was just me at first.

They work fine when changed by hand each box,
but when they get program change sent from the OT the A4 and AR change late
unless all set to the same value in change and length.?
Then if u want an 128 long polyrhythm/meter
you have to wait 128 steps if you want to change

It seems like it’s not receiving the program change in time until the OT changes otherwise.

I will send them a ticket see what they say ?

Just tried the A4 sending program changes to the AR and OT still the same late