AR or OT can't decide

yomanfree · 2014-08-11T14:05:31.000Z

Hello all,

It seems that I need some help from the elektron users/community . Sorry if it is a bit long but I tried to analyzed pro/cons and needs.
I’ve seen many people having some identical uncertainty throught the different threads.

I already own the Elektron A4, and like it.
Based on this I will perheaps add 1 more elektron box in order on one side to do music without computer, on the other side to complete my harware when computer on (DAW).

To be noticed that I just could add 1 elektron box not 2 (I’m too open to any other proposition than elektron).

I’ve read a lot to know exactly features of each elektron box, and despite I’ve tried to define and refine my needs,
I find some drawbacks each time and have too some questions.

My focus is today between OT and AR. I’ve read many things about MD, but I dont know why but based on previous experiences and what I’ve read, when a box try to do everything (sampling, drums etc…) at the end it does everything not at expected level vs dedicated hardware, or too complex.
It doesn’t have microtiming additionnally.
Open to your comment yet.
Considering OT.

-> stand alone:
will allow drums (sample based), I could use for exemple the A4 for some analog drums sound creation and OT sampling/utilization.
Even recording a singer is possible (not a priority because I dont think that a PC/DAW can be replaced here)
Open to add new synths etc… and control/sequence them
and for sure many other things perheaps less important for me
Yet, it can be clearly see that the machine starts to be old feature based: compact flash mem with low internal mem, can’t allow overbridge, no midi over USB …
Additionnally, the number of midi port is low (yes it can be workarounded with additionnal cost and … room + wires).
Then probably no evolution from Elektron except a new hardware/additional machine (a mkII version in the pipe ?)

Questions:
Is it possible to use something like a nanopad (which little box has a midi out ?) (or maschine when PC connected to set the midi out) connected to OT midi in ?
The OT is mono per track. Is it possible for exemple to have a keyboard connected to the OT midi in, and play chords recorded in several OT tracks ? (and without external/specific midi box)

-> connected to a PC:
I think that Elektron here completly miss to have midi over USB (and it is even completly inacceptable from Elektron based on box functionnality tbh).
I guess that it is possible to connect the OT midi out to my Midi IN Roland octacapture: is it correct?
My idea here is to control some VSTi synths (like diva etc…) and drums VSTi with the OT: is someone already tried this ?
Then even here I could take benefit of the PC/VSTi but with external control (maschine, OT, A4).
As a drawback, I could miss here what overbridge will offer (close work with DAW). I will whatever always mix in a DAW.

-> other: dont you feel that Elektron will soon have an OT mkII for overbridge ?

Considering AR
-> stand alone
AR with A4 is really standard setup for music (drums + synth) then should cover many situation.
Yet this is today a setup not open to evolution (except for CV/gate additionnal hardware) later.
Should be easier to use compared to OT + A4 ?
AR can read samples (then in case I need a specific sound it remains possible), and usually a drum + synth is enought for a stand alone set.
Additionnally AR has some pads for live playing (I can’t imagine that the velocity control won’t be added), and velocity (interesting for stand alone utilization) …

Questions: how much is flexible the AR synth engine if I want to create some other sounds outside drums (like a bass etc…) ?
This question is to save 1 track in the A4 in order to have chords if necessary.
Or do you feel that only samples is an accurate solution (then equal to OT here).

-> Connected to a PC
Here I have maschine (which is almost completly usable without PC display).
Then here for me there is some overlap EXCEPT for the AR analog engine and the overbridge (which could allow to use effects in a DAW if I’ve understood weell). Am I wrong ?
The price difference between OT and AR is about 300 euros (about 25%)… the price of a microbrute or close to a blofield for exemple.

As additionnal comment, I find the Elektron strategy and future completly unclear (and this is what partly show my comments/questions). It seems for exemple that A4 and AR wont never have sequencer midi out. Whereas MD had. Then they try to oblige people to buy the OT (but do I really need a sampler ?). And the fact that they have some hidden circuits inside the box (A4 polyphony, several A/D converter for overbridge and whatelse ?) that they implement if they want is not something that I really appreciate. What is there roadmap ? Please dont tell me to buy just for what is existing because whatever I buy too the hidden circuit that I can’t use…
But they have uniq gear.

I’m really open to any ideas, comments, corrections, if you have some answers to my question (and what you would do and why) etc…

Thanks

PeterHanes · 2014-08-11T18:03:53.000Z

""yomanfree"":

Considering OT.

Questions:
Is it possible to use something like a nanopad (which little box has a midi out ?) (or maschine when PC connected to set the midi out) connected to OT midi in ?

Yes, you can connect any device with a MIDI Out (drum pads, keyboard, controller, sequencer) to the OT MIDI In.

""yomanfree"":

Considering OT.

Questions:
The OT is mono per track. Is it possible for exemple to have a keyboard connected to the OT midi in, and play chords recorded in several OT tracks ? (and without external/specific midi box)

You would need some kind of workaround (software, MIDI box, intelligent controller keyboard) to do this. You could play sampled chords on a single OT track, although that would not be very flexible.

""yomanfree"":

Considering OT.

→ connected to a PC:
My idea here is to control some VSTi synths (like diva etc…) and drums VSTi with the OT: is someone already tried this ?

If your PC setup can be controlled by MIDI, then you can use the Octatrack to play or sequence your VSTi synths.

""yomanfree"":

Considering OT.

→ connected to a PC:
→ other: dont you feel that Elektron will soon have an OT mkII for overbridge ?

Personally, I don’t believe that Elektron will soon have an OT Mk2 that incorporates Overbridge, because Elektron does not replace old models of hardware very often.

""yomanfree"":

Considering AR
→ stand alone
Should be easier to use compared to OT + A4 ?

I don’t have an AR, but by many reports from users it is easier to use than an OT.

""yomanfree"":

Considering AR
→ stand alone
Questions: how much is flexible the AR synth engine if I want to create some other sounds outside drums (like a bass etc…) ?
This question is to save 1 track in the A4 in order to have chords if necessary.
Or do you feel that only samples is an accurate solution (then equal to OT here).

The AR synth engine is optimised for drum sounds. There are some nice demonstrations of bass sounds, but overall it should be much easier to make melodic sounds using a synth like the AF. Using samples for melodic sounds, and especially for chords, is generally a little more time-consuming than using a synth.

""yomanfree"":

As additionnal comment, I find the Elektron strategy and future completly unclear (and this is what partly show my comments/questions). It seems for exemple that A4 and AR wont never have sequencer midi out. Whereas MD had. Then they try to oblige people to buy the OT (but do I really need a sampler ?). And the fact that they have some hidden circuits inside the box (A4 polyphony, several A/D converter for overbridge and whatelse ?) that they implement if they want is not something that I really appreciate. What is there roadmap ? Please dont tell me to buy just for what is existing because whatever I buy too the hidden circuit that I can’t use…

No-one outside Elektron knows what their roadmap is, except that Overbridge is scheduled to be released in a few months time. However, it seems reasonable to assume that AF, AK, and AR will not have MIDI out from the sequencer enabled.

You can make your own guesses about what updates or new models Elektron will introduce, but the only way to be confident is to decide what to buy based on the existing or pre-announced features.

""yomanfree"":

I’m really open to any ideas, comments, corrections, if you have some answers to my question (and what you would do and why) etc…

The sensible question to ask yourself is “what do I need in order to make better music?” What do you think will be better about your music if you have a 2-unit computerless setup? How would an extra hardware unit help you with your DAW setup?

Only then can you check which unit, if any, would be best to buy.

yomanfree · 2014-08-11T21:01:16.000Z

Hi Peter
thanks a lot for your answers.
I’ve had a look too to more youtube video, and the possibility for the AR to use filters, loops etc… on samples. It opens many possibilities.

Your last sentences are quite helpfull at the end because I spent a lot of time to compare the gears to understand what they are doing, but my initial interest is a drum box to be added to the A4. OT interested me because can use drum samples with some nice additionnal features … that I dont really need at least today.
Globally, AR is deep and the drum sound is outstanding to my ear. Perheaps what I need to add to my A4 (whatever stand alone or even with DAW/PC).
Now I have to try to find one unit in a music store as I would like to ear it live …

thanks

danlukas · 2014-08-11T21:16:39.000Z

i think the learning curve on the octatrack is much steeper.

i understood the rytm almost immediately, the octatrack feels more obtuse to me.

dubathonic · 2014-08-11T23:45:53.000Z

[quote=“” yomanfree""]
I’ve read many things about MD, but I dont know why but based on previous experiences and what I’ve read, when a box try to do everything (sampling, drums etc…) at the end it does everything not at expected level vs dedicated hardware, or too complex.
It doesn’t have microtiming additionnally.
Open to your comment yet.

[/quote]

I can tell you’re considering lots of factors here, so for the interest of completion I might add a few points here about the MD.

While it’s not Elektron’s latest creation, it does have the advantage of a finished operating system with very few remaining bugs. It is also a relatively known quantity, with lots of user experiences and helpful advice available, especially archived on the old “elektron-users” forum.

And, while I’m admittedly biased, having used mine heavily for four years, it is actually quite good at the many things it does once you learn it. Having a sampling engine that can play everything from single-cycle waves to phrases of up to 2 bars in length, plus resample itself on the fly, makes it a flexible tool. Combine this with 16 tracks and several different forms of percussion synthesis that can be twisted in many interesting ways, and it means it’s what I reach for nearly every time when I want to sketch a track from scratch.

(Its lack of microtiming hasn’t bothered me much, but when it does, I often find I can get around it by increasing the note resolution together with adjusting the swing. I make house and techno, so you may have very different needs.)

…Anyway, you can do a lot of these things - perhaps even more effectively, depending on your workflow - with the OT, and I fully expect the AR will have its already considerable capabilities expanded greatly in the future. But since you’re thinking hard and want to stick with one piece of Elektron gear, all I might say is, consider the MD. It’s been widely respected for a decade for good reason.

Elektronot · 2014-08-11T23:55:24.000Z

CAUTION: AR is not ready

panelist · 2014-08-12T00:10:52.000Z

You are asking many technical questions, but it is not clear exactly what you want to do with whichever machine you end up with.

Can you explain the workflow you are looking for? I think that would also help in giving you advice.

edit:
I did not see your other post above

""yomanfree"":

Hi Peter
thanks a lot for your answers.
I’ve had a look too to more youtube video, and the possibility for the AR to use filters, loops etc… on samples. It opens many possibilities.

Your last sentences are quite helpfull at the end because I spent a lot of time to compare the gears to understand what they are doing, but my initial interest is a drum box to be added to the A4. OT interested me because can use drum samples with some nice additionnal features … that I dont really need at least today.
Globally, AR is deep and the drum sound is outstanding to my ear. Perheaps what I need to add to my A4 (whatever stand alone or even with DAW/PC).
Now I have to try to find one unit in a music store as I would like to ear it live …

thanks

In the case that you want a drum machine, both machines are very capable. I think the main factor to consider is whether you want the core of your drum creation to be synthesis or samples.
While I agree that there are still issues that need to be addressed in the AR’s OS, it could also be said for the OT. I think they are on equal footing as far as that is concerned.
The OT is very menu driven, and I found myself to be focused very much on the interface and remembering key combinations. I felt it to be less than intuitive. The AR’s interface is much more shallow that then OT’s and, I feel, more intuitive. Some functions are confusing, but most are relatively top-level in the menu architecture. Ultimately, though, the OT is capable of doing more things than the AR.
My vote leans toward the AR. I’ve had both the OT and AR. I first owned the OT, all I wanted was to use it as a drum machine and never felt fully satisfied. The AR, for me at least, fills that role much better (as it is designed to).

De_wouzer · 2014-08-12T01:37:25.000Z

i come from ‘Native Instruments maschine’ and I am very happy with my Rytm. it is logical, not too complex in it’s basis and sounds very nice.

Many things I like, especially the way I can shape my sounds is really nice.

I have this one and the A4. many similarities… but AR is easier for me.

yomanfree · 2014-08-12T11:24:32.000Z

Thanks , all your answers help me.

“I’ve had both the OT and AR. I first owned the OT, all I wanted was to use it as a drum machine and never felt fully satisfied. The AR, for me at least, fills that role much better (as it is designed to).”.
Panelist you’ve translated exactly what I’m thinking. I can imagine many things I could do with OT, like a swiss knife. But it will finish exactly as you describe here.

machinedrum vs AR is not easy. But I dont have analog drums then AR could add to my setup. Not sure for MD (and vs maschine). Even if I want to be able to use AR without PC, AR integration in my DAW could be clearly a plus too.
Perheaps I’m wrong … And will think more about this before final decision.

The fact that AR is not yet completly ready (but usable) is not too much a problem today: I tend to use and keep my hardware many years. Problem could be if Elektron cancel development and bug correction. But I dont believe it.

For maschine, difficult for me today to replace it. I tend today to always start music with maschine and finish with presonus/studio one … Who knows, perheaps Elektron will change completly my mind ?

Thanks again for all your answers