AR + Innerclock sync w/ Ableton - sync issues over USB & MIDI

Squirts · 2014-08-11T09:56:14.000Z

Hi All,

bit of a weird one that put the dampener on a recording session this weekend…

I use innerclock Sync-gen and record to ableton, using ableton as the clock & transport signal.

All my other boxes run tight and start at the first beat when i hit record on ableton, but when I use the USB Midi functionality on the AR, it starts the first beat with a delay and then drops the second beat too quickly after that, then continues with tight timing and no issues.

If I use MIDI in over Midi cable, no weird 1st/2nd beat issue, but i can’t get rid of the latency/lag on the 1st beat.

I’ve currently got the settings on AR as

In- MIDI
Thru-MIDI
Out - MIDI

Any suggestions on how to lose this lag ? It doesn’t affect any other boxes, jus the AR, so I’m hoping it’s user error on the AR settings…

Squirts · 2014-08-11T10:24:45.000Z

forgot to add, I can get it to work if i sequence from ableton, but need to add a track delay adjustment of -295ms…

which is less than ideal (putting it mildly)

Squirts · 2014-08-11T15:02:18.000Z

this is going to one of those monologue threads, i can tell… apologies.

Anyway, as i should have probably done more thoroughly before coming to the forum, I see there were some threads about this, and that the resolution came in the form of a new OS, 1.02C, which is now installed. Which means I’m now triggering from Ableton much more tightly (in line with the rest of my boxes). Yay.

BUT, still a noticeable lag if using the AR’s onboard sequencer and trying to sync with ableton. Boo.

Is this a non-starter? Seems a shame really as sequencing on the AR with pram locks was part of the attraction.

Any ideas, views, or anything related/unrelated?

cheers,
s.

Speedball · 2014-08-11T17:18:23.000Z

""Squirts"":

Hi All,

bit of a weird one that put the dampener on a recording session this weekend…

I use innerclock Sync-gen and record to ableton, using ableton as the clock & transport signal.

All my other boxes run tight and start at the first beat when i hit record on ableton, but when I use the USB Midi functionality on the AR, it starts the first beat with a delay and then drops the second beat too quickly after that, then continues with tight timing and no issues.

If I use MIDI in over Midi cable, no weird 1st/2nd beat issue, but i can’t get rid of the latency/lag on the 1st beat.

I’ve currently got the settings on AR as

In- MIDI
Thru-MIDI
Out - MIDI

Any suggestions on how to lose this lag ? It doesn’t affect any other boxes, jus the AR, so I’m hoping it’s user error on the AR settings…

Are we talking about SynGen II ? As far as i know, there are only 2 ways to connect this device with hardware, dinsync and midi. No USB. Did you connect properly ? Audio out to syncgen, Midi out Syncgen to Midi in Rytm ?
Just to make sure, you installed the syncgen software and routed the audio signal from ableton to the audio interface ?
On rytm, you ticked Transport and Clock receive in Global Settings (Midi) ?
The latency between the start of ableton and the start of your rytm etc. is kind of normal, because yor DAW is starting right away, but your audio interface needs “some” time to run the audio from rytm to ableton. You should therefore compensate this latency in ableton ONCE and save this Songfile as a template.
You said the transport/clock is coming from ableton, why do use the syncgen then ? Its the only task the syncgen is actually made for.

Sorry if i misunderstood, just trying to help.

Squirts · 2014-08-11T17:53:15.000Z

Yup, Sync-gen. And yup, connected properly - all my other boxes are running ticket-boo
yup yup yup, no issue with sync-gen, it works a treat
yup, both are ticked
This is where I’m not sure if things are right - should there be a greater delay between Rytm issuing a noise sequenced on ableton, and starting an internal sequence? For latency compensation, I use the track delay boxes at the bottom of each midi channel.
Sorry, my mistake here - clock comes from Sync-gen, transport from ableton. As i understand it, ableton issues the start/stop commands, and everything runs off the sync-gen timecode.

Thank you for jumping in, I appreciate any support here! Elektron support are a bit overwhelmed as far as I can see from reading other posts… So any help is very gratefully received

Speedball · 2014-08-11T18:36:34.000Z

""Squirts"":

This is where I’m not sure if things are right - should there be a greater delay between Rytm issuing a noise sequenced on ableton, and starting an internal sequence? For latency compensation, I use the track delay boxes at the bottom of each midi channel.

Sorry, my mistake here - clock comes from Sync-gen, transport from ableton. As i understand it, ableton issues the start/stop commands, and everything runs off the sync-gen timecode.

You press play in Ableton.

Ableton software starts running. Producing sound internally or from harddisk or from whereever (not an expert !!!)

Syncgen is generating the clock, but the signal must be sent to your audiointerface to Syncgen Box (Audio Signal), from Syncgen Box to Rytm (Midi Signal), Rytm starts playing and is sending audio back to your audio interface, your audio interface is sending it to Ableton. And this takes extra time before you can here anything.

Point 5 i disagree, yes clock comes from SyncGen. And yes you hit play in Ableton. But this is not the transport signal for the Rytm. Rytm only is beginning to play when it is hit by the signal of SyncGen Box.

Maybe you could try the following:
Don’t use the track delay boxes. Use the Sync Offset of the SyncGen Software (at bottom in the right corner). Click Advance and experiment with the amount of samples until Ableton and your hardware/rytm are tight when you hit play in Ableton.

ZenPunkHippy · 2014-08-11T22:50:53.000Z

I might be misunderstanding the problem (sorry!) but Sync Gen won’t sync the notes coming out of your host - it is only for providing clock to external hardware that receives MIDI clock (or DIN Sync) for some purpose - running an internal sequencer, or syncing LFOs.

It doesn’t know anything about the notes you are sending from Live to the Rytm.

For that you would need to set an offset to compensate for any delay sending notes from Live > Rytm, and the sound coming back in to Live. Depends on sound card settings, but 256 samples will result in ~18 ms round trip latency (the amount you’ll need to compensate for).

For tighter recording you’re better off sequencing on the Rytm.

FWIW I use Sync Gen to slave Cirklon to Logic on a Mac. There is always some jitter when I hit play in Logic, while Cirklon attempts to sync. I haven’t looked for a solution, just assumed it was normal. After the initial 1 or 2 beats of jitter, sync is perfect (but I’m not sending any MIDI from Logic, that’s all handled by Cirklon).

Squirts · 2014-08-11T23:16:33.000Z

It’s cool, I’m aware it doesn’t sync the notes.

From reading a thread on gearslutz, it seems mixing SW & HW sequencers can be more trouble than it’s worth… Bit of shame, but no biggie.

So, as I like sequencing on ableton, I’ve separated the pads out with a midi channel & ext. instrument for each pad, and it works tight. I think I can record the scene automation using rytm’s pads this way too.only issue is not being able to mute the pads.