AR for non-drum related synthesis?

Zwolf · 2015-03-30T15:47:33.000Z

I know from listening to the Science Lab contest entries that the AR is quite capable of creating cool synth sounds from sample manipulation; but how do you find the 8 regular drum machines for creating interesting non-rhythmic textures? Pads, drones, chord stabs, etc?

The only Elektron box I have is the MD and I’m getting ready to change that soon. I’ve spent a good bit of time reading through forum posts and reading manuals bringing myself up to speed on the newer units. TBH, I really want the OT, AR and A4 (or keys), but realistically I’ve narrowed it down to the AR or A4 for now. I will postpone the decision on whether to keep the MD ultimately until I’ve got a good handle on the new box and what it can do vs what I need.

What I mostly need now is something to create melodies - bass lines, leads, pads, spacey chord textures, that sort of thing. I currently have a minitaur as my only other synth other than Ableton instruments and these I’m not very interested in. While this statement seems to tip the balance towards the A4, I should also point out that I’m VERY drawn towards the drum sounds in the AR. And I’ve been growing a bit tired of some of the colder more metallic sounds I’ve been getting from my MD, though I’m aware that it’s fully capable of being many things and I do love it. But it could be time for a change…?

Perhaps the AR and A4 combo is what I ultimately need, but it’s going to start with MD plus…? I won’t be performing live, so for voice limitation in either isn’t a big concern for either as I can do multiple passes in a DAW recording.

So I’ve meandered, but back to my original question: Is the AR a satisfying and capable synth in the realm of outside of percussive sounds?

Thanks in advance for any help on this journey!

v00d00ppl · 2015-03-30T16:09:35.000Z

Is your MD a UW model?

I have both the AK and AR. AR is good for simple bass synth sounds.

If you want pads, melodies, strings, brass, etc. Get an A4 or AK. Using just one track on the A4/AK you can write something that can make you bounce, plus the percussive sounds on it can cover 70-80% of the sounds I use on the AR. I started on the AR first because i wanted an Sp-404 on steroids wih analog drum synthesis and it covers that.

AdamJay · 2015-03-30T19:38:48.000Z

Rytm does great bass lines. If you go the Rytm route, check out the Files section for single cycle waveform chains. There are some moog and waldorf pulse bass waveforms in there that I use for deep bass with Rytm’s sample capabilities.

The sample section really opens up possibilities especially as you can layer the samples with synthesized drums. Using LFOs, some realtime parameter sweeps, along with more carefully programmed p-locks with samples can get into some nice textured sounds. The performance and scene modes combined with the compressor just make it an overall wonderful value. If you want an extra LFO for sound design, you can add on GugaBox’s Morph4 midi controller which has an automation mode that can act as an extra LFO.

For all its limitations, the Rytm is incredibly flexible. And it just sounds ace too. Your MD going in and hitting the Rytm compressor will really have you perking up.

Rytm wasn’t even on my radar until I came across this video by Dataline where he gets into some sample manipulation early on. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eov9iFyEGc0
Now, Rytm is at the heart of my music.

Zwolf · 2015-03-30T19:42:22.000Z

""v00d00ppl"":

Is your MD a UW model?

I have both the AK and AR. AR is good for simple bass synth sounds.

If you want pads, melodies, strings, brass, etc. Get an A4 or AK. Using just one track on the A4/AK you can write something that can make you bounce, plus the percussive sounds on it can cover 70-80% of the sounds I use on the AR. I started on the AR first because i wanted an Sp-404 on steroids wih analog drum synthesis and it covers that.

Thanks, v00d00ppl. I have the UW model with a + drive. And yeah, it’ll be hard to part with the sampling ability. That’s why I think the AR and A4 might be the ultimate combo. And then one day the OT to regain the live sampling possibilities.

But I guess I’m just not ready to rule out the AR. Any other thoughts on the synthesis capabilities of the internal machines for the aforementioned melodic components? It HAS to be pretty amazing. The MD itself is in this respect, and it seems to have far less lush effects and less basic synthesis control. And then the pitch thing of course…

Zwolf · 2015-03-30T20:18:49.000Z

""AdamJay"":

Rytm does great bass lines. If you go the Rytm route, check out the Files section for single cycle waveform chains. There are some moog and waldorf pulse bass waveforms in there that I use for deep bass with Rytm’s sample capabilities.

The sample section really opens up possibilities especially as you can layer the samples with synthesized drums. Using LFOs, some realtime parameter sweeps, along with more carefully programmed p-locks with samples can get into some nice textured sounds. The performance and scene modes combined with the compressor just make it an overall wonderful value. If you want an extra LFO for sound design, you can add on GugaBox’s Morph4 midi controller which has an automation mode that can act as an extra LFO.

For all its limitations, the Rytm is incredibly flexible. And it just sounds ace too. Your MD going in and hitting the Rytm compressor will really have you perking up.

Rytm wasn’t even on my radar until I came across this video by Dataline where he gets into some sample manipulation early on. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eov9iFyEGc0
Now, Rytm is at the heart of my music.

Thanks, AdamJay. Yeah, I’ve seen some of your videos and heard some of the basslines from the single cycle waveform chains and that’s part of what has me wanting the AR badly.

It’s almost going to have to come to a coin toss as far as which I pull the trigger on first, AR or A4. A4 can do drums but also kill it in the melodic department; AR can do melodic and kill it with drums. I guess I can’t go wrong either way.

The MD and whether it stays is the x factor though…

Though I’m actively searching for clues as to which will be best for me, far worse problems to have than this decision I’ll probably miss the quest when it’s over.

Lymtronics · 2015-03-30T20:42:49.000Z

I’d go with the A4 first and use it alongside the MD for a while. Get to know some of the advanced sequencer and file structure features that will be familiar once you get an AR. You can get some really lush pads and drones out of the A4 as well as some huge analog percussion sounds to compliment what the md can do. You can also capture some polyphonic sounds with the UW side of things and keep more analog tracks free for other duties.

AdamJay · 2015-03-30T20:50:03.000Z

""Zwolf"":

It’s almost going to have to come to a coin toss as far as which I pull the trigger on first, AR or A4. A4 can do drums but also kill it in the melodic department; AR can do melodic and kill it with drums. I guess I can’t go wrong either way.

I was in the same spot you were in.

Was real close to pulling the trigger on the A4 first, and then found a good deal on a Rytm at the last minute, and decided to get it first. The A4 followed a month later.
Now that the dust has cleared, I’m glad I went in that order. Of course, I didn’t have a MD UW like you, so I might have gone A4 first.
But from a learning perspective, the A4 made a lot of sense thanks to my time spent with the Rytm. They’re really made for one another, and there’s a good chance you’ll end up with both.

A4’s drums are remarkably good, but you really gotta dedicate two tracks to drums if you’re trying to do it all on one Elektron machine. The kicks really need full use of the envelopes, unless you like short little electro- knuckly knocker kicks.

I’d watch some Rytm and A4 tutorial vids (cuckoos are great), and see which one gets you more excited and go with that.

I think you’ll still find room for the MD UW. Elektron is clever in their overlap of products. Each have definitive strengths. A4/Rytm/MonoMachine is my chosen trinity and I feel each machine to be quite different, yet complimentary. Plus, MD gives you an external midi sequencer if you want to add anything else down the road.

Zwolf · 2015-03-31T17:26:50.000Z

Good points, all. It’s looking more and more like a coin toss with no losing option!

AdamJay · 2015-03-31T20:10:57.000Z

""Zwolf"":

Good points, all. It’s looking more and more like a coin toss with no losing option!

Even after all my own anecdotes… if I had to lean in one direction… like, gun to my head…
Analog Four.

You’ve got a drum machine with sample capabilities already in the MDUW, simple as that.
Also, it will give you a taste of analog Rytm-esque drums, and who knows… maybe even MDUW + 1 track of A4 drums will satisfy. Or, you’ll learn just how much you want the Rytm by having just a taste.

Zwolf · 2015-04-01T18:23:09.000Z

""AdamJay"":

[quote=“Zwolf”]Good points, all. It’s looking more and more like a coin toss with no losing option!

Even after all my own anecdotes… if I had to lean in one direction… like, gun to my head…
Analog Four.

You’ve got a drum machine with sample capabilities already in the MDUW, simple as that.
Also, it will give you a taste of analog Rytm-esque drums, and who knows… maybe even MDUW + 1 track of A4 drums will satisfy. Or, you’ll learn just how much you want the Rytm by having just a taste.[/quote]
That’s kind of what logic is dictating to me now. If I look past my general horniness for the AR, the A4 is more in line with what I need. Doesn’t hurt that it’s a couple hundred less either.

Thanks for engaging me in this and for your contributions to this forum in general!

allyourblood · 2015-04-03T05:03:59.000Z

""Zwolf"":

Any other thoughts on the synthesis capabilities of the internal machines for the aforementioned melodic components? It HAS to be pretty amazing.

I’ve had my Rytm for a little over a month now (and a MonoMachine for about eight years) and I feel fairly confident when I say it’s pretty limited in this regard. Using samples and single cycle waveforms will get you very, very far in this area, but the internal machines? Not so much. The included synth parameters and envelopes really don’t lend themselves to a lot of variation outside of percussion or noise/odd effects. I have come up with all sorts of cool squawks, bleeps, thwips, hums and wonky bass-ish sounds, but nothing that even comes close to rivaling what can be done with a single OSC in even a very basic VA synth (mind you, I’m not counting the sequencer or p-locks in this statement).

I have found the most success using the cowbell, rimshot and tom tracks for melodic elements; I struggle to get much out of the other tracks for these types of sounds.

I have my fingers crossed that someday Elektron will throw us a bone and add a “Synth” machine of some kind, but it’s unlikely since so much can already be done with the sample section and of course we’d then be treading in A4/AK territory. And that’s kinda frustrating since the A4/AK can so easily create all sorts of terrific drum sounds with apparent ease, but the reverse isn’t really true for the AR.

Getting back to the sample and SCWF stuff for a moment, it really is quite exciting what can be done in the AR: the filter is, to my ears, absolutely gorgeous; it’s liquid, smooth, and dark, for the most part, and turns a short bass sound into an analog wonder; I defy anyone to notice you’re even using a sample once you’ve got a good sound dialed in!

I haven’t done much in the realm of pads and drones with my AR yet, since it’s paired with several other machines that cover that ground already, but for basses and leads, the sample playback works a treat.

I have already made up my mind to go for the A4 or OT next, and right now the A4 is winning out since I’m eager to explore further the vibe behind Elektron’s analog synthesis. So on that note, and in reply to your original post, I’ll say this: If you’re mostly looking to pursue wild melodic and pad/drone stuff, go with the Analog Four first. You have drums covered, and in a big way, with the MD so you won’t lack for percussion while you decide where to take things from there. The Analog Rytm is phenomenal and is certainly only going to improve with time, but if you get it first, you’re going to have a whole lot of rhythm going on, and no big synth stuff to complement it. The A4 will still provide you with some nice kicks, snares, and drum wackiness, too.

Zwolf · 2015-04-03T16:12:25.000Z

""allyourblood"":

[quote=“Zwolf”]Any other thoughts on the synthesis capabilities of the internal machines for the aforementioned melodic components? It HAS to be pretty amazing.

I’ve had my Rytm for a little over a month now (and a MonoMachine for about eight years) and I feel fairly confident when I say it’s pretty limited in this regard. Using samples and single cycle waveforms will get you very, very far in this area, but the internal machines? Not so much. The included synth parameters and envelopes really don’t lend themselves to a lot of variation outside of percussion or noise/odd effects. I have come up with all sorts of cool squawks, bleeps, thwips, hums and wonky bass-ish sounds, but nothing that even comes close to rivaling what can be done with a single OSC in even a very basic VA synth (mind you, I’m not counting the sequencer or p-locks in this statement).

I have found the most success using the cowbell, rimshot and tom tracks for melodic elements; I struggle to get much out of the other tracks for these types of sounds.

I have my fingers crossed that someday Elektron will throw us a bone and add a “Synth” machine of some kind, but it’s unlikely since so much can already be done with the sample section and of course we’d then be treading in A4/AK territory. And that’s kinda frustrating since the A4/AK can so easily create all sorts of terrific drum sounds with apparent ease, but the reverse isn’t really true for the AR.

Getting back to the sample and SCWF stuff for a moment, it really is quite exciting what can be done in the AR: the filter is, to my ears, absolutely gorgeous; it’s liquid, smooth, and dark, for the most part, and turns a short bass sound into an analog wonder; I defy anyone to notice you’re even using a sample once you’ve got a good sound dialed in!

I haven’t done much in the realm of pads and drones with my AR yet, since it’s paired with several other machines that cover that ground already, but for basses and leads, the sample playback works a treat.

I have already made up my mind to go for the A4 or OT next, and right now the A4 is winning out since I’m eager to explore further the vibe behind Elektron’s analog synthesis. So on that note, and in reply to your original post, I’ll say this: If you’re mostly looking to pursue wild melodic and pad/drone stuff, go with the Analog Four first. You have drums covered, and in a big way, with the MD so you won’t lack for percussion while you decide where to take things from there. The Analog Rytm is phenomenal and is certainly only going to improve with time, but if you get it first, you’re going to have a whole lot of rhythm going on, and no big synth stuff to complement it. The A4 will still provide you with some nice kicks, snares, and drum wackiness, too.
[/quote]
allyourblood - thanks for the great detailed response, particularly in the specific focus on my question about internal synthesis. I have decided that the A4 will be my next purchase (or perhaps the keys; still pondering the workflow and space layout and if that’ll work as well on my desk) and it’s nice to feel more settled on this choice.

But of course your additional points about the capability of the AR’s sample engine is not helping the gas for this box subside . Although I know some have stated that they prefer the MD UW for sample mangling, it really seems to me that you can do SO much more with a sample on the AR. Perhaps it simply comes down to what you prefer in a sound. While you can definitely work melodies in the MD, I’m certain it’s a far more cumbersome endeavor than on the AR, despite not having even played one yet. The MD does kick ass for glitchy, out-there sounds though…

I did a melodic piece on my MD for the Science Lab, something I hadn’t done before. It was a really cool exercise to coax new sounds out of it and in many ways a pleasure to be forced into odd workarounds to achieve the desired results; i.e. using an LFO to further fine tune a pitch. With that said, I can’t see creating melodic music in this manner all the time. It’s far too time consuming. And also, in the end, I was frustrated with the sonic capabilities of the sample engine. Playing around with filters and eq only got me so far. I couldn’t seem to get too far from this sort of saxophone/clarinetish tone…

Of course, I’m new to this and not the best at it…that’s for sure.

But listening to submissions for the contest, I think it does reveal that there’s more you can do with a sample on the AR than the MD.