Analog Rytm Loses Sync - Pattern Change

amiga303 · 2015-04-27T09:50:35.000Z

very right, cool somebody put it up again…
has been discussed at least three times.
2 things to add

i did loads of tests and sync lags happen with “busy” patterns and with fast pattern jumps.
busy: dsp heavy stuff: loads of fx, param changes, etc.
one cannot expect perfect sync under all conditions. no device handles this. i have loads of hw seqs and even a mpc3000 can have sync problems (under rare conditions).
have a look at this, u might be surprised:
[http://www.innerclocksystems.com/new%20ics%20litmus.html](http://www.innerclocksystems.com/new ics litmus.html)

mtc seemed to work a bit better for me. but yeah, i would not do crazy direct jump juggling live with that machine. i didnt have much problems with chained patterns, though i do stop/start stuff… midipal for example can do this automated.

so what to expect: i expect some tweaks to stabilize external sync. clarification in the manual fast pattern jumping can cause sync problems.

however, i am more sick about repeating this over and over without an official statement if this issue has been acknowledged.
i reckon elektron is still working on their usb overbridge sync stuff. something that would work for computers only and something that will never really work out. get realistic and release some reasonable optimizations…
happy if elektron proves me wrong

amiga303 · 2015-04-27T09:59:28.000Z

http://innerclocksystems.com/blog/?p=934
innerclock gave AR quite good metrics, actually. of course this does not say AR always performs nicely.

so it would be interesting if u do something particular that causes ur massive sync problems. for example heavy param automation or so… try to reproduce ur sync problems with an almost empty pattern and try to add more. let us know if u find something surprising

XanaX · 2015-04-27T10:10:17.000Z

is this problem relative to “direct jump” mode only or does AR really lose sync in other pattern chain modes?? i’m just about to pull the trigger on AR but this would be a major deal breaker as i need really tight sync with my other boxes (808,909, Tempest, MPC etc).

Ess · 2015-04-27T10:49:13.000Z

How does the rest of your setup look like? I would like to know how your MIDI chain looks like in detail.

DSP usage has no effect on the MIDI sync. All the effects are send effects, so they are always “on”.

Bin · 2015-04-27T12:52:29.000Z

Im finding pattern changing unreliable in all modes, even in standalone .
Changing in direct jump mode doesnt reliably work if you change near the end of a pattern, sometimes pattern A loops once more before pattern B starts, and there can be a momentary glitch when you try to change A>B if it doesnt work that time round.

In direct start mode the same thing happens, another loop can occur before pattern B starts if youre too close to the end of pattern A

In sequential mode you can only switch pattern at least 150ms before the end of pattern A . Though Rytm is clearly able to switch near instantaneously, according to Elektron its been crippled so it will work the same way as machinedrum and older elektron boxes. It would be great to have this limitation as optional. Coming from ableton im used to being able to change patterns a few ms before a loop ends, which feels far more musical than having to think ahead by a quarter second to make sure your pattern actually gets fired off…

Basic pattern changing is buggy or clunky. But its still an awesome machine, could be awesomer!

amiga303 · 2015-04-27T18:59:21.000Z

[quote=“” XanaX""]
is this problem relative to “direct jump” mode only or does AR really lose sync in other pattern chain modes?? i’m just about to pull the trigger on AR but this would be a major deal breaker as i need really tight sync with my other boxes (808,909, Tempest, MPC etc).
[/quote]

as far as I am concerned AR syncs ok. did not experience thar near-to-end switching, but as said i do chains mostly.
cant find my post (search does not work nicely), did some tests and it clearly had an impact if i was direct jumping almost empty patterns or rich patterns with loads of param changes and such.
check the litmus test (link above) of ur 909, i’d rather be concerned here

that said there surely is room for optimization for more stable external sync. do some tests (with a tight master clock of course), u will notice.

edit: the test i did, and i usually do on all my hw seqs:

set up master sequencer (cirklon in my case). triggers AR kick 4/4 via midi note. any short percussive sound does it.
AR is slave. program AR pattern that plays the same pattern, same kick 4/4
gives u a flangy sound, as the kick is triggered almost at the same time
now go mad with fast direct jumping, jumping to busy patterns, have high speed bpm, etc.
u can hear sync lapses very quickly
also tried that with a few chained patterns, including some busy ones. no problem here, externally triggered kick and kick triggered by AR stayed in sync, even after 30 min

XanaX · 2015-04-27T19:17:54.000Z

the 909 has a timing bug on it’s V1 firmware. i use innerclock products and a MPC3000LE for master clock. i’m pretty anal about sync TBH. just trying to understand the issue with AR here before i pull the trigger (was actually about to buy one today!). i guess i could deal with the “direct jump” bug until that gets fixed but having the clock choke under “rich”/“busy” patterns isn’t going to fly. also i understand OB has stalled AR’s OS dev, and I’ve already made the mistake of buying an underdeveloped drum machine once (Tempest) not about to do so again. hoping Elektron address what sounds like a potentially critical issue.

XanaX · 2015-04-27T21:32:28.000Z

""amiga303"":

edit: the test i did, and i usually do on all my hw seqs:

set up master sequencer (cirklon in my case). triggers AR kick 4/4 via midi note. any short percussive sound does it.

AR is slave. program AR pattern that plays the same pattern, same kick 4/4

gives u a flangy sound, as the kick is triggered almost at the same time

now go mad with fast direct jumping, jumping to busy patterns, have high speed bpm, etc.

u can hear sync lapses very quickly

also tried that with a few chained patterns, including some busy ones. no problem here, externally triggered kick and kick triggered by AR stayed in sync, even after 30 min

so are you saying AR doesn’t lose sync when using “sequential mode” pattern chaining but chokes only when doing “direct jump” pattern switching (on busy patterns)? the OP in this thread claims he looses sync using all 3 pattern switch modes… would be good to get a clear consistent answer on this topic so we could narrow down the issue!

FollowAlice · 2015-04-28T02:38:23.000Z

I’ve tried multiple configurations, Rytm as master, slave, Rytm only connected to an Analog Four and the Rytm is losing sync when doing a pattern change on the Rytm. It is happening with only a kick drum pattern programmed into the Rytm, so I dont think that it is related to being overloaded. This is happening in all 3 pattern change modes: Sequential, Direct Jump, and direct Start.

I can also confirm that Direct Jump does not work properly. When changing patterns using Direct Jump the Rytm seems to randomly decide when it wants to change patterns, it is unreliable and unusable to me personally.

Do you guys not change patterns when using the Rytm connected to other devices, It seems like this would be something more people were discussing but I didn’t find much info other than some old posts about the Direct Jump issue from almost year ago, which makes me wonder why I am having to deal with this problem now.

XanaX · 2015-04-28T06:28:06.000Z

^ as stated earlier by simon (who works for elektron) it would greatly help if you stated you’re exact midi chain, meaning what devices are you trying to sync it with and how are you setting them up specifically. i would also advise you to contact their support team and enter a ticket explaining in full detail the problem and you’re setup (midi chain & devices). this is the only way you may get elektron to look at the problem and hopefully find a solution.

by the way, since i think you also have a 909 it may be interesting to try AR’s DIN sync and see if that helps the sync issue (FWIW Analog Four had a Din Sync bug when it released but was quickly fixed with an update after reporting findings). As i mentioned earlier the 909 has a timing sync bug with it’s V1 firmware but syncs tightly via Din Sync.

Ess · 2015-04-28T08:59:48.000Z

Since these are quite serious claims, I felt that it was necessary to make some proper testing in the line of what is described in this thread.

I made a single click track on both the Rytm and Analog Four, with 3 different patterns of a full 1/4, 1/8 and 1/16-notes on the Rytm which I am cycling between during the recording. The Rytm is set to receiving MIDI clock and transport, and the Four is set to send. I am doing this in Sequential Change mode.

Here is a screen recording of scrubbing and zooming into the recording in Ableton Live:

For a precise measurement, I opened the recording in Audacity. I took three screenshots from the very first click to later in- and the middle of the recording.

audacity_0.png2416×1726 136 KB

audacity_1.png2416×1726 139 KB

audacity_2.png2416×1726 134 KB

As you can see, the delay is around 95-99 samples for each example.
Samplerate is 44.1khz

XanaX · 2015-04-28T09:36:14.000Z

so around 2ms jitter/latency which isn’t too bad. of more concern is the claim that “busy” patterns and “direct jump mode” make the sync choke to what i suspect unreasonable amount (+6ms). i think you should do further testings as it seems others are having similar sync issues:

http://www.elektronauts.com/t/syncing-rytm-and-a4/9050page:1

Ess · 2015-04-28T09:57:09.000Z

Very well then.
Next test conducted with two patterns with every track (except for click) filled out on all 16 steps, parameter lock memory maxed out as well.

0.png2550×1698 147 KB

1.png2550×1698 139 KB

2.png2550×1698 148 KB

10 - 15 samples difference.

Dataline · 2015-04-28T10:01:12.000Z

amiga303 · 2015-04-28T10:16:54.000Z

big Kudos to the mods, thanks Simon

XanaX · 2015-04-28T10:28:47.000Z

@simon: so you’re actually getting less latency with a busier pattern?! that doesn’t sound logical at all or am i missing something?

@amiga303: you stated earlier in this thread:

i did loads of tests and sync lags happen with “busy” patterns and with fast pattern jumps.
busy: dsp heavy stuff: loads of fx, param changes, etc.

so again i’m confused… are mods using a different OS version? is the lag only with “direct jump”?

why is simon’s test in contradiction with what others are saying?

xidnpnlss · 2015-04-28T12:07:47.000Z

Thank you Simon for your official contribution. Frustratingly, these claims have not been addressed properly and/or brushed off by Elektron in the past. I’m glad to see someone adressing them.

While you’re doing tests, I for one would like too see the Direct Juaddressed. could you try sequencing tracks of varying lengths in INF mode? And since you’re INF, see what happens when you use Direct Jump to change patterns? Thank you for your time.

clunky · 2015-04-28T12:35:28.000Z

well someone needs to record

an example of the sync issues

they are having

and post em up

Ess · 2015-04-28T13:16:27.000Z

""XanaX"":

@simon: so you’re actually getting less latency with a busier pattern?! that doesn’t sound logical at all or am i missing something?

No – I am getting more latency with a busier pattern. ~95 samples vs ~110 samples.

I’m not so sure about the OS versions. I know the Analog Four I used for this has an internal Overbridge version, but the Rytm might have the current public OS, I’m not in the office right now so I can’t confirm that. Anyway, I don’t think the devs have been optimizing MIDI sync the last couple of months.

I think my test contradicts what some people are reporting because my MIDI chain is as clean as it gets, and that is usually otherwise the culprit. MIDI is a messy protocol!

Changing the pattern length on the fly with separate track length on Rytm does cause a loss of sync, this is a known issue and is being worked on.

XanaX · 2015-04-28T13:34:19.000Z

ok that makes more sense, i must have misunderstood your “10-15 sample difference” comment on the busy pattern test. anyways glad to know you guys are working on timing sync optimisations under certain scenarios. i’m assuming an update will roll out with OB release next month and hopefully tighten sync in various degrees (i’m also guessing this is why AR wasn’t demo’d with OB during messe).