A4 Clipping problems

faro · 2014-04-01T10:27:00.000Z

Hi,

I always thought that I can hear clipping in my A4 from time to time. Now I had some time trying to address this issue systematically. This is what I did:

[ul]
[li]Starting with the basic/default track sound[/li]
[li]decreased cutoff of filter 1 (not necessary, just to make the clipping more audible later))[/li]
[li]Put filter 2 into HP resonance [/li]
[/ul]
[ul]
[li]Increased cut off of filter 2 to around 50[/li]
[/li][/ul]
[ul]
[li]Increased Track Level to 127[/li]
[li]Increased Amp Level to 127[/li]
[li]Play four notes polyphonic[/li]
[/ul]

Output signal clips in the A4 preamp. Reducing the main volume doesn’t help. This problem is way more easily to reproduce in polyphonic mode since the volume is higher then.

Here is demo video I quickly made (video is shaky but audio is recorded directly into audio interface):

Would be interesting if you guys can confirm this issue or if is just my device being broken.

I am running OS 1.1D

t · 2014-04-01T10:35:18.000Z

Looks like normal behavior to me. Does the distortion go away when you decrease your track and amp levels a bit?

Please remember that this is an analogue synth; if you turn everything way up you might get distortion.

secretmusic · 2014-04-01T11:50:54.000Z

You’ve got the resonance of filter 2 cranked all the way up. You also have 4 voices playing, all oscillators turned up to max, amps and levels turned to max. I’m not sure what else you expect. You’ve basically put everything as loud as you can, and then you are massively boosting a frequency range, and sweeping it. I would think that some distortion occurring would make total sense in this scenario. The only way the A4 could deal with this is if the overall headroom was tweaked to allow for this kind of setup, which would make a single voice with no resonance even weaker than they are now.
This is basic gain staging, there is no problem here, I would suggest you turn down the individual oscillators levels, the Amp levels, if you’re set on keeping max resonance on filter 2. It will not only fix the distortion, but also potentially save your ears / speakers from getting fried

Cheers !

PS : the recommended oscillator level for minimal filter distortion is around 60, so anything above that is already introducing harmonics. You can clearly hear it with a triangle wave and a bit of resonance on filter 1.

tonight · 2014-04-01T12:07:49.000Z

""secretmusic"":

You’ve got the resonance of filter 2 cranked all the way up. You also have 4 voices playing, all oscillators turned up to max, amps and levels turned to max. I’m not sure what else you expect. You’ve basically put everything as loud as you can, and then you are massively boosting a frequency range, and sweeping it. I would think that some distortion occurring would make total sense in this scenario. The only way the A4 could deal with this is if the overall headroom was tweaked to allow for this kind of setup, which would make a single voice with no resonance even weaker than they are now.
This is basic gain staging, there is no problem here, I would suggest you turn down the individual oscillators levels, the Amp levels, if you’re set on keeping max resonance on filter 2. It will not only fix the distortion, but also potentially save your ears / speakers from getting fried

Cheers !

PS : the recommended oscillator level for minimal filter distortion is around 60, so anything above that is already introducing harmonics. You can clearly hear it with a triangle wave and a bit of resonance on filter 1.

another thread on levels you’ve sorted,
obviously many guys with gear don’t understand and don’t both to read up on stuff
yep I blew every speaker I could lay my hands on when I got my first synth, a ms20, and ran those 2 filters into obliteration mode

what did you say

secretmusic · 2014-04-01T12:39:45.000Z

""tonight"":

[quote=“secretmusic”]You’ve got the resonance of filter 2 cranked all the way up. You also have 4 voices playing, all oscillators turned up to max, amps and levels turned to max. I’m not sure what else you expect. You’ve basically put everything as loud as you can, and then you are massively boosting a frequency range, and sweeping it. I would think that some distortion occurring would make total sense in this scenario. The only way the A4 could deal with this is if the overall headroom was tweaked to allow for this kind of setup, which would make a single voice with no resonance even weaker than they are now.
This is basic gain staging, there is no problem here, I would suggest you turn down the individual oscillators levels, the Amp levels, if you’re set on keeping max resonance on filter 2. It will not only fix the distortion, but also potentially save your ears / speakers from getting fried

Cheers !

PS : the recommended oscillator level for minimal filter distortion is around 60, so anything above that is already introducing harmonics. You can clearly hear it with a triangle wave and a bit of resonance on filter 1.

another thread on levels you’ve sorted,
obviously many guys with gear don’t understand and don’t both to read up on stuff
yep I blew every speaker I could lay my hands on when I got my first synth, a ms20, and ran those 2 filters into obliteration mode

what did you say [/quote]
haha, the MS 20 can certainly blow speakers And so can the A4, as well. I have a good friend who comes and jams with me, when he uses the A4, I make sure to turn down his channel quite a bit, as he’s very much into cranking the filters’ resonance and putting LFO’s on filter cutoffs … I’ll let you imagine the rest

t · 2014-04-01T13:51:46.000Z

Most might not have considered doing so yet, but turning down the osc level from the default 100 value can greatly change the character of the filters. The default value already introduces a fair amount of distortion and turning it down can really help if you’re after a softer or mellower type of sound.

wintermute · 2014-04-01T14:16:32.000Z

Gain staging is your friend, people! When you’re playing live, your sound engineer will love you for remembering it!

avantronica · 2014-04-01T16:24:55.000Z

^ all of the above - seems predicable tbh

faro · 2014-04-01T20:32:38.000Z

""t"":

Looks like normal behavior to me. Does the distortion go away when you decrease your track and amp levels a bit?

yes it does go away then. However when I use reverb or delay it quickly clips again.

faro · 2014-04-01T20:48:49.000Z

""secretmusic"":

You’ve got the resonance of filter 2 cranked all the way up. You also have 4 voices playing, all oscillators turned up to max, amps and levels turned to max. I’m not sure what else you expect. You’ve basically put everything as loud as you can, and then you are massively boosting a frequency range, and sweeping it. I would think that some distortion occurring would make total sense in this scenario. The only way the A4 could deal with this is if the overall headroom was tweaked to allow for this kind of setup, which would make a single voice with no resonance even weaker than they are now.
This is basic gain staging, there is no problem here, I would suggest you turn down the individual oscillators levels, the Amp levels, if you’re set on keeping max resonance on filter 2. It will not only fix the distortion, but also potentially save your ears / speakers from getting fried

Cheers !

PS : the recommended oscillator level for minimal filter distortion is around 60, so anything above that is already introducing harmonics. You can clearly hear it with a triangle wave and a bit of resonance on filter 1.

Thank you for your explanation. I do know about this kind of stuff, but to my ears the clipping sounds not very analog. Additionally I was wondering why it occurs in the preamp/mixer section of the A4 and not in the output stage of the A4 as I can decrease the main output and it still clips.
I am not complaining about the distortion that is introduced when the amp drives into the filter. This is completely different story as it introduces musical distortion rather than hard clipping. Same for the overdrive.
I have lots of other analog gear which does clip. I think a synth/instrument should not introduce any clipping at all regardless of the parameter you choose. If it clips the amplification section is poorly designed.
I would like to ask again:
Can you guys confirm exactly this kind of clipping as I had in my video on your machines?
Does the Analog Keys behaves the similar?

secretmusic · 2014-04-03T14:02:48.000Z

""faro"":

[quote=“secretmusic”]You’ve got the resonance of filter 2 cranked all the way up. You also have 4 voices playing, all oscillators turned up to max, amps and levels turned to max. I’m not sure what else you expect. You’ve basically put everything as loud as you can, and then you are massively boosting a frequency range, and sweeping it. I would think that some distortion occurring would make total sense in this scenario. The only way the A4 could deal with this is if the overall headroom was tweaked to allow for this kind of setup, which would make a single voice with no resonance even weaker than they are now.
This is basic gain staging, there is no problem here, I would suggest you turn down the individual oscillators levels, the Amp levels, if you’re set on keeping max resonance on filter 2. It will not only fix the distortion, but also potentially save your ears / speakers from getting fried

Cheers !

PS : the recommended oscillator level for minimal filter distortion is around 60, so anything above that is already introducing harmonics. You can clearly hear it with a triangle wave and a bit of resonance on filter 1.

Thank you for your explanation. I do know about this kind of stuff, but to my ears the clipping sounds not very analog. Additionally I was wondering why it occurs in the preamp/mixer section of the A4 and not in the output stage of the A4 as I can decrease the main output and it still clips.
I am not complaining about the distortion that is introduced when the amp drives into the filter. This is completely different story as it introduces musical distortion rather than hard clipping. Same for the overdrive.
I have lots of other analog gear which does clip. I think a synth/instrument should not introduce any clipping at all regardless of the parameter you choose. If it clips the amplification section is poorly designed.
I would like to ask again:
Can you guys confirm exactly this kind of clipping as I had in my video on your machines?
Does the Analog Keys behaves the similar?
[/quote]
No worries I did not mean any disrespect, but I’ve found it safe to assume that people have no knowledge when troubleshooting issues, so that no stone is left unturned
In your particular case, and watching your video again, the main culprit is filter 2 resonance. It’s pretty much at its max, which is an EXTREME setting, and therefore, WILL produce extreme results, including distortion before hitting the Amp.

Suggesting that the amp section is poorly designed is simply ludicrous, however. Let’s talk extremes, then. Let’s do a 4 voice chord, each voice playing 2 osc’s and 2 sub osc’s. That’s a 16 oscillator stack. Now let’s increase every osc level to its max, which will, by design, already clip the mixer. Then, let’s boost filter 2 resonance to the max, on all voices. Let’s sweep the filter 2 frequency and find a nice, low end value (maybe between 50 and 200 hz).
Now, you have 16 oscillators playing together with a massive (massive) boost at a frequency. Do you expect this to NOT clip the Amp ? How would one design an Amp that can take in SO MUCH volume without clipping ? And if such an Amp, with such headroom, was designed and implemented in the A4, can you imagine how 1 oscillator on its own would sound through said Amp ? It would sound weak and quiet. In fact, one single osc in the A4 already sounds really weak and quiet, a testament to the massive headroom already available in the mixer section.

And to answer your question, yes, I can easily reproduce this behavior, I can even make it worse by cranking the overdrive on all 4 voices. Sometimes, it’s what I’m looking for, sometimes, it’s not. If it’s not, then I can always turn down individual osc levels, no problems here.

Elektron have always provided extreme ranges on most parameters, i’m happy they do. But, as a result, you can quite easily blow speakers, distort the hell out of something (MD delay with max feedback anyone ? talk about distortion !!!), or make yourself deaf. This is not a flaw but a design decision, there’s nothing “wrong” with the scenario you’re experiencing, it’s expected, easily reproduced, and easily avoided behaviour
Cheers !