Why is it so painful (Sample upload woes)

Elektron Gear Analog Rytm
#15

@Ess : Can you help us resolve the significance of the comment in the Manual when compared to your comment, or what the important subtleties mean in practice …

whereas the manual suggests …

SDS Handshake. Select whether to use handshaking or not when sending samples.
This is needed by the Analog Rytm.

It also suggests a delay in ticks of 1 > 2 for OSX and 5 > 50 for windows for anyone else browsing this topic

I am going to see if it’s possible to reliably set up a transfer of a modest (<1Mb) selection of pre-formatted samples … earlier attempts were such that some didn’t arrive (Ticks set to 0, Handshake On)

#16

Here are my observations

All attempts to upload were successful this time
The only aborted attempt was when i accessed the settings pane during a transfer (i did not ok or change anything, but this crippled the upload permanently)

The important thing for me is to note the following

The accessing of the Settings pane will disable Turbo mode, and this results in much slower transfer - Turbo mode is not user negotiable after it is disabled - so before you press send - ensure that the Turbo toggle is still active

The Turbo mode makes a big difference in speed - as does enabling even 1 or 2 ticks delay on OSX

As it seemed to work well in Turbo Mode with either SDS Handshake On or Off I will leave it on, it wasn’t notably slower for small sample uploads

Either way - i have already developed a routine where I restart C6 if the device isn’t automatically selected or if Turbo isn’t on - then i leave the settings well alone

The important one to have preselected is Extended SDS - to get the names transferred

This was for Mavericks btw

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#17

I would expect Turbo mode to make a difference only if you have the DIN MIDI ports enabled. They’re bandwidth-limited to be much slower than the USB ports, even with Turbo enabled.

So I’d like to suggest that you verify that you are using the USB connection to upload samples and have the DIN ports turned off.

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#18

I only had a USB cable attached, i did have it set to …

Input From : MIDI + USB

… though

So the Turbo negotiation was done at USB level, and with and without Turbo it was faster/slower - now whether it is preferable to select …

Input From : USB

… i don’t know, though that’s what you’re suggesting i guess - it’s a pain to have to toggle so many settings although i could appreciate why the subtlety would be more important if it was data coming from the Device

we need authoritative statements on this stuff, or at least we ought to collate all the available nuggets

#19

When I used to own a RYTM, the response I’d usually get from others when I vented about these types of frustrations was that the RYTM is not a sampler, and that I should be happy that there’s even an option to upload samples. The RYTM is a drum machine, not a sampler; get an Octatrack. I’d suggest looking into other machines if you desire a more traditional “sampler” workflow. If I were you, I’d strongly consider maybe selling the RYTM for the Jomox Alpha Base that’s about to come out.

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#20

Let’s leave the cynicism aside and concentrate on useful contributions - The device receives samples, they’re usable and that’s all there is to it afaiac. Waiting a few minutes more than ideal, if you were not savvy enough not to research the best settings before uploading a Gb on your first day with it, is hardly cause for concern, or cause for selling the device.

We’re trying to bottom out the workflow, so please @Prints add something useful (or nothing at all) rather than going out of your way to spoil the thread … two wrongs don’t make a right

I’ve highlighted why some of the complaining about sample uploads taking too long is quite likely user related

#21

Point taken. If you want to work with the RYTM’s sample playback capabilities most efficiently, use @void’s app, try only working with samples you need as you need them rather than uploading too many at once, and find a good sample editing software on your computer to help convert/chop up your samples such as Audacity.

#22

But for various reasons, some of us have to make do with C6, so if we get the workflow nailed, we can soon see why the user experience is varied and maybe help Elektron fix anything that’s fixable

I’m not into leaning on samples, so this isn’t something which gets me too fussed, i’m sure there are plenty with good reason to be annoyed, but i do think dropping a Gb of samples on one of the most flexible analog drum machines is somewhat a wasted opportunity - but it should work and it ought to be less finicky getting the job done - i’ve seen the uploads abort, it’s a pain, no arguments, but i’ve also heard how good samples are when they’re in - on balance, a small price to pay imho, maybe not if it’s your sole focus (the sample side)

#23

you do not have to deactivate OB Mode for Sample Transfer in C6 to work properly! if sample transfer does not work its a general Problem on the Computer (bad / slow USB Hub and stuff) and not the mode the Rytm is running in. I had this several times and the Mode was never the reason why it did not work.

Can confirm that Windows is the worst platform for OB and everything MIDI in general though. Too much driver shit, bad OS … i did not got OB to work properly and stable on my PC even after i did a clean and fresh install ^^ And my PC has a Core i7 4770k and a very good Mainboard inside. So it is pretty fast. Thats ridicoulus!

#24

analog drums get used pretty quickly, so its normal that people want more variety. Samples are the key for that on the Rytm and therefore i can fully understand that people want to put their Sample Packs on the Rytm to benefit from its great performance features without being limited to the analog Sounds. Thats how i understood it at least: If you have enough from the analog sounds, the samples are there to get you covered :slight_smile:

#25

personally I find samples in the AR indispensable. They just vastly expand what you can do with this device, and they sound great in combination with the Analog bits.

If you’re not using samples with this box you’re missing out imho.

But yeah I also agree preemptively dropping in gigabyte of them isn’t ideal… The interface for loading them to the project isn’t very great if you have a large library. Short, flexible one shots and occasional longer sounds for pads etc work best, and it’s more manageable to load them into the machine when needed.

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#26

…maybe drag&drop from within OB would be a nice/good alternative/option rather than having to look for other solutions? (i would be happy in this case even if the AR wouldn’t show up as a USB disk) and regardless of whether it’s a small or big file one wants to transfer, i still wish sample transfer on the AR would work ‘slightly’ better than it does now…is it 2016 right? it’s a feature i’m not using at all unfortunately and same goes for the audio input :confused:
being a rather expensive piece of gear…well, i would have expected this would have been taken care of at some point and users should not have to rely on 3rd party software for a ‘standard inbuilt’ feature…but anyway, that’s just my view…others might be ok with all this…in the meantime, i’ll keep crossing my fingers, you never know…

#27

#28

Good catch. This part in the manual should be rephrased. SDS handshake should be on for stability reasons, but can be turned off. In early OS versions, transfers were more likely to fail without handshaking, but the SDS has since been improved.

[quote=“subbz2k, post:23, topic:33955”]
you do not have to deactivate OB Mode for Sample Transfer in C6 to work properly! if sample transfer does not work its a general Problem on the Computer (bad / slow USB Hub and stuff) and not the mode the Rytm is running in. I had this several times and the Mode was never the reason why it did not work.[/quote]

As always: YMMV.

If faced with such issues as our opening post here, I recommend to disable the Overbridge Mode. In fact, in most cases it causes issues with SysEx/SDS on OS X if enabled. On Windows it is generally fine to have it on however.

I will have to disagree with this statement (aside from the MIDI part…)

I have been using Windows with Overbridge for the last year and haven’t had any issues. Latency consistently around 2-3ms. In testing we did not experience worse performane on Windows either. Not sure why it is not working well for you - but the operative system is not the issue.

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#29

Hey @Ess so to clarify - switch off SDS Handshake and Overbridge in the RYTM?

I did them manually (1 by 1 - urg), but will try this next time.

FYI - the PDF that comes with the sample pack says turn SDS Handshake on and doesn’t mention Overbridge. Maybe there should be Troubleshooting tips at the bottom of the PDFs you send out with Sample Packs with these additional suggestions (or actually put these into the main instructional copy)?

THX

#30

Hello @Ess,

Since you’re kindly adding input to the thread.

Do you think there will be any changes on how the Rytm handles samples manually or via OB in the future?

#31

.

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#32

FWIW as a Windows 10 user with my Rytm I get best results with OB mode off, 1ms Delay and handshake off. Other than that, OB/MIDI is solid, so sounds like some people have other issues than their OS.

However, C6 is terrible for managing files, when are we getting modern tools to do it, wasn’t there a murmur about OB bringing that?

#33

6 posts were split to a new topic: Overbridge latency in Ableton Live

#34

The Operating System is the issue - i work as an IT Administrator in a mixed Windows/Linux Environment and i cannot even summarize how much in terms of Drivers and tons of stuff relying on those drivers is really happening under the hood of this OS. It takes only ONE single component in your system whose driver does not perfectly fit - to create a chain-reaction which can influence latency critical applications like OB on the other side of your chipset :slight_smile: So it is in fact a timebomb - it may work, or it may not work at all. A compatibility list on your side would be great - to see what you have really tested :wink: For me it started with audio dropouts, later i had horrible latency and finally nothing worked anymore. So im glad that i still have my old MBP around - with a dual core processor :smiley: but it works like a charme with OB on El Capitan, no latency issues, no audio dropouts - i hit record, it works. Thats nothing you get on the PC if your components are more exotic/not tested.