With this thread I´m sort of having an goal (and I hope you´ll all join in, the more the merrier!). Going in depth in understanding the possibilities of the LFO´s, sort of an attempt consolidating the vast knowledge of this forum.
Questions, thoughts, secrets and/or whatever… bring them on.
As you probably know there are three LFO´s in each track. Where you have a lot of options regarding waveforms (including LFO designer), rate etc. They can also relate to each other ‘from bottom up’ if you´d like to see it that way.
All in all. There are probably a quite huge potential in how, when and why to use them. But most of us have probably just scratched the surface. And most probably wouldn´t mind learning some more regarding them.
I don´t really have any kind of structure in how this thread will/should evolve. And anyone, feel free to give your input regarding this structure. I´m thinking that maybe we could have an sort of collective problem solving, like ie:
In any post from anyone:
[ol]
[li]Question, presentation of the ‘problem/wish’[/li]
[li]Presenting the thoughts of how he/she tried to get there (parameters, tricks externally from the LFO per se, project settings etc)[/li]
[li]Question the possibility of solution and/or asking for input of different views[/li]
[/ol]
Yesterday I had an attempt of creating variations ‘out of nothing’.
Had an kick sound, which I sliced up in lots of slices (max I believe). From them I got lots of ‘variations’ of a kick sound. Not in its pure sense, but of course they did sound a bit different due to the energy left in relation to where the start position are.
In my attempt of ‘polishing’ the turd, I experimented a lot with filter settings to get some more ‘snappy’, ‘oomphy’ as well as other variations. Which seemed/sounded possible enough.
What I would like to do with the LFO(´s):
[ul]
[li]Having an sort of step thru of each slice being active when I hit trigs, with the waveform adjusting certain parameter(s) to get the abovementioned ‘variations’.[/li]
[li]Having, if possible, the ‘step thru’ procedure locked in to the slice trigs (in slice mode). Slice 1, having its sound. Slice 2, having its sound. But pressing trig 1 twice (preferably) shouldn´t step thru the sounds of both slice 1 and slice 2 due to the LFO. Which is the results I´m getting.[/li]
[li]Is this ‘locking’ possible, in any way? If so what´s needed? More LFO´s with very specific parameter settings? Special waveform from the LFO designer? [/li]
[/ul]
Free running lfo. Just like a “normal” lfo. No bpm sync, rate 2, depth 100, wave sine… Slooooow modulation of panning or filter cutoff, this kind of things
@Groof if I understand correctly, what you want is “just” a very slow constant LFO, am I right ?
I don’t get it why you absolutely need it to be unsynchronised…
And what is this “RATE” parameter you’re talking about ?
Anyway you seem to say that MULT to 1 and SPEED to 1 is not slow enough for you ??
Weird… For me it’s plenty enough.
Anyway, if you want slower, then modulating the first LFO depth with the second LFO should get you to what you need, no ?
Then you still have a third LFO you can chain to worsen things !
I read your post about 60 times to try to understand it.
Do I understand correctly that you want to use Slice Mode to have each trig key play a particular slice (independent of time), but have linked modulation of parameters by an LFO (i.e. time dependent)?
I think you need a new form of physics, rather than a new LFO, to do that. Or, to be serious, some MIDI Out to In action with a MIDI processor (Note to CC) in the loop.
If the OT had a more sophisticated sequencer in terms of playback mode/direction/triggering, like some of the DSI or Sequentix (or maybe Korg) or other analogue-sequencer-inspired gear, it might be good.
In the meantime, using HOLD as the TRIG behaviour for the OT LFO gives you stepped behaviour which is close to, but not exactly, what you want.
lfo1 select the slice for the step, free mode, slice x on step x
lfo2 does the filter tricks, if this magic can be automated with only one lfo
lfo3 set the volume for a step only (square, trig half, half a period for one step)
Basic volume set to zero…
Would it be close to what is talked about here ?
I read your post about 60 times to try to understand it.
Do I understand correctly that you want to use Slice Mode to have each trig key play a particular slice (independent of time), but have linked modulation of parameters by an LFO (i.e. time dependent)?
I think you need a new form of physics, rather than a new LFO, to do that. Or, to be serious, some MIDI Out to In action with a MIDI processor (Note to CC) in the loop.
If the OT had a more sophisticated sequencer in terms of playback mode/direction/triggering, like some of the DSI or Sequentix (or maybe Korg) or other analogue-sequencer-inspired gear, it might be good.
In the meantime, using HOLD as the TRIG behaviour for the OT LFO gives you stepped behaviour which is close to, but not exactly, what you want.
Or maybe I misunderstood what you want.[/quote]
I´ll try to describe my question/idea again. However, I´m almost 100% sure that it isn´t possible, but I haven´t fully grasped all the LFO options. Hence the question/thread.
Maybe there is an close enough workaround, or it will just evolve into something else (sort of realizing that it isn´t ‘the spoon that bends’).
An imaginary example.
The kick is sliced into just 16 slices. So the slices got their position/number.
In slice mode I can play any of these slices. And any of them sounds slightly different due to the transient/energy/whatever differencies compared to the other slices. Any of these slices sound, can be ‘enhanced’ or at least altered with filter settings and whatnot. But when this is done in the effect slot parameters, the changes applies to ALL slices.
If I´m using an LFO (which can have different settings that relates to trigs, either from the grid sequencer or from me playing trigs/slices). The effect parameter can be altered. Lets say that I somehow got the LFO settings so that the LFO would give me 16 different alterations. They will happen in a consecutive order for each/any trig event.
So… pressing trig 1 x 16, would step thru all LFO alteration of the effect parameter. As well as going thru all 16 trigs in consecutive order would too.
As I´m playing in the slice mode. There are no use of p-locks settings anywhere as they aren´t tied to the slices (start position) themselves, just to the grid sequencer steps. Right?
So the question was, basically: can I trick the OT to behave differently with some clever magic of the LFO´s, LFO designer and/or something else?
I read your post about 60 times to try to understand it.
Do I understand correctly that you want to use Slice Mode to have each trig key play a particular slice (independent of time), but have linked modulation of parameters by an LFO (i.e. time dependent)?
I think you need a new form of physics, rather than a new LFO, to do that. Or, to be serious, some MIDI Out to In action with a MIDI processor (Note to CC) in the loop.
If the OT had a more sophisticated sequencer in terms of playback mode/direction/triggering, like some of the DSI or Sequentix (or maybe Korg) or other analogue-sequencer-inspired gear, it might be good.
In the meantime, using HOLD as the TRIG behaviour for the OT LFO gives you stepped behaviour which is close to, but not exactly, what you want.
Or maybe I misunderstood what you want.[/quote]
I´ll try to describe my question/idea again. However, I´m almost 100% sure that it isn´t possible, but I haven´t fully grasped all the LFO options. Hence the question/thread.
Maybe there is an close enough workaround, or it will just evolve into something else (sort of realizing that it isn´t ‘the spoon that bends’).
An imaginary example.
The kick is sliced into just 16 slices. So the slices got their position/number.
In slice mode I can play any of these slices. And any of them sounds slightly different due to the transient/energy/whatever differencies compared to the other slices. Any of these slices sound, can be ‘enhanced’ or at least altered with filter settings and whatnot. But when this is done in the effect slot parameters, the changes applies to ALL slices.
If I´m using an LFO (which can have different settings that relates to trigs, either from the grid sequencer or from me playing trigs/slices). The effect parameter can be altered. Lets say that I somehow got the LFO settings so that the LFO would give me 16 different alterations. They will happen in a consecutive order for each/any trig event.
So… pressing trig 1 x 16, would step thru all LFO alteration of the effect parameter. As well as going thru all 16 trigs in consecutive order would too.
As I´m playing in the slice mode. There are no use of p-locks settings anywhere as they aren´t tied to the slices (start position) themselves, just to the grid sequencer steps. Right?
So the question was, basically: can I trick the OT to behave differently with some clever magic of the LFO´s, LFO designer and/or something else?
[/quote]
OK, so your request is as I thought.
There is no ‘clever magic’ of LFOs that will achieve what you want. In fact, what you want is modulation, not an LFO. Modulation in the sense of a systematic adjustment of some parameter.
An LFO is an example of a modulation source, and the Elektron LFOs are great implementations of LFOs. But LFOs are time-based: their variation depends on time and they vary with time according to some kind of sequence (either a traditional periodic waveform or a designed periodic waveform).
Whereas your slice trigger pressing is purely arbitrary: you could be pressing trig 1 50 times consecutively, or pressing the trig buttons in a completely arbitrary and non-periodic sequence. And there is no way for the OT to tell the target parameter (filter etc) which trig has been pressed, because the OT lags the kind of modulation system that many other synths have (where many different parameters like key pressed, or filter frequency, or oscillator amplitude, can act as a modulation source).
This is where many other instruments like those from Waldorf, DSI, Access, right up to the mighty Nord Modular G2, always have a synthesis advantage over existing Elektron gear. (Not that the Octatrack is a slouch for sound design - it’s my one piece of irreplaceable gear.)
A thread about modulation, not just LFOs, would be a real treat.
I’d try using the lfo designer with 16 steps ranging from 1 to 16 and setting the trig to hold for the slice selection. Don’t know if it works, though.
In fact I’d try the designer + hold on both counts.
I read your post about 60 times to try to understand it.
Do I understand correctly that you want to use Slice Mode to have each trig key play a particular slice (independent of time), but have linked modulation of parameters by an LFO (i.e. time dependent)?
I think you need a new form of physics, rather than a new LFO, to do that. Or, to be serious, some MIDI Out to In action with a MIDI processor (Note to CC) in the loop.
If the OT had a more sophisticated sequencer in terms of playback mode/direction/triggering, like some of the DSI or Sequentix (or maybe Korg) or other analogue-sequencer-inspired gear, it might be good.
In the meantime, using HOLD as the TRIG behaviour for the OT LFO gives you stepped behaviour which is close to, but not exactly, what you want.
Or maybe I misunderstood what you want.[/quote]
I´ll try to describe my question/idea again. However, I´m almost 100% sure that it isn´t possible, but I haven´t fully grasped all the LFO options. Hence the question/thread.
Maybe there is an close enough workaround, or it will just evolve into something else (sort of realizing that it isn´t ‘the spoon that bends’).
An imaginary example.
The kick is sliced into just 16 slices. So the slices got their position/number.
In slice mode I can play any of these slices. And any of them sounds slightly different due to the transient/energy/whatever differencies compared to the other slices. Any of these slices sound, can be ‘enhanced’ or at least altered with filter settings and whatnot. But when this is done in the effect slot parameters, the changes applies to ALL slices.
If I´m using an LFO (which can have different settings that relates to trigs, either from the grid sequencer or from me playing trigs/slices). The effect parameter can be altered. Lets say that I somehow got the LFO settings so that the LFO would give me 16 different alterations. They will happen in a consecutive order for each/any trig event.
So… pressing trig 1 x 16, would step thru all LFO alteration of the effect parameter. As well as going thru all 16 trigs in consecutive order would too.
As I´m playing in the slice mode. There are no use of p-locks settings anywhere as they aren´t tied to the slices (start position) themselves, just to the grid sequencer steps. Right?
So the question was, basically: can I trick the OT to behave differently with some clever magic of the LFO´s, LFO designer and/or something else?
[/quote]
OK, so your request is as I thought.
There is no ‘clever magic’ of LFOs that will achieve what you want. In fact, what you want is modulation, not an LFO. Modulation in the sense of a systematic adjustment of some parameter.
An LFO is an example of a modulation source, and the Elektron LFOs are great implementations of LFOs. But LFOs are time-based: their variation depends on time and they vary with time according to some kind of sequence (either a traditional periodic waveform or a designed periodic waveform).
Whereas your slice trigger pressing is purely arbitrary: you could be pressing trig 1 50 times consecutively, or pressing the trig buttons in a completely arbitrary and non-periodic sequence. And there is no way for the OT to tell the target parameter (filter etc) which trig has been pressed, because the OT lags the kind of modulation system that many other synths have (where many different parameters like key pressed, or filter frequency, or oscillator amplitude, can act as a modulation source).
This is where many other instruments like those from Waldorf, DSI, Access, right up to the mighty Nord Modular G2, always have a synthesis advantage over existing Elektron gear. (Not that the Octatrack is a slouch for sound design - it’s my one piece of irreplaceable gear.)
A thread about modulation, not just LFOs, would be a real treat.[/quote]
Spot on, thanks!
Just as I suspected. So moving on in that idea, theoretically, one way could be to have an midi controller/keyboard sending out CC values that sets the playback (page) parameter #2, as well as effect 1 (page) parameter #1 + #2 (with effect being the default filter). That´s an idea that actually fits my G2 engine perfect. Talk about trying to make a mountain out of a rock…
I haven´t tried or used the LFO designer much, but will explore/experiment with it. Maybe something will come out of it, but probably not the initial ‘wish’. But that´s perfectly fine too. I´m just trying to learn more about the LFO´s (and/or other stuff) more in depth, bending the rules and/or limits of my mind regarding them.
Just found out this weekend that the OT doesn´t need samples or live input of sound to be able to create sounds. Really rewarding experience!
Not sure if you meant this towards my post or some question of others.
But if it was for me: I´m unable to follow the thinking here. Do you mind to elaborate a bit further?[/quote]
Yes @miketheman I was trying to answer to your question, but I misunderstood it so let’s explain what I had understood of your need and what I wanted to say.
Let’s say you have a 16 steps kick sample-chain on Track 1 (FLEX with Slice mode activated).
What I understood it that you wanted only one slice played per step, only when you activate a step. And you want the slice skipped when you deactivate the step.
(Let me reformulate my answer)
For this, set your LFO 1 with linear ascending curve
You can use a designed LFO for instance, it’s clearer.
But you can also use the ascending WAVE with the right MULT so that you only get the ascending part.
TRIG to HOLD setting, PMTR to PB/STRT parameter , don’t forget to set PLAYBACK/LEN to 1 to play only one slice.
[ul]
[li]Just a word on designed LFO curves : you can setup 8 designed LFO curves, as you can design one LFO curve for each track[/li]
[li]You can use any of the 8 designed curves on each LFO of each track ![/li]
[/ul]
+The LFO3 with the volume I was mentioning is nonsense, in fact.
Now if you want to play with the FX on each step, you can only play with the parameters of first or second FX, but you cannot choose the FX with the LFO. The target parameter of a LFO can be only in the MAIN TRACK PARAMETER page, not the SETUP TRACK PARAMETER page. And the FX nature in on the SETUP TP page.
Yet you can still use 2 LFOs to play with cutoff+resonance of the filter for instance. And you may want to set the values for each step with the help of 2 other designed LFOs.
Beware, you’ll quickly run out of designed LFOs if you do this on 4 tracks for instance. So you’ll have to reuse some
To change the nature of the FX targeted by the LFO, I guess you’ll have to play with Parts, and set a bit differently the LFOs to address the right parameters.
Save this Part 1, copy it, paste it on Part 2, change the LFO settings.
Then while playing you switch between Part1 and Part2 to play on different effects.
I haven´t tried or used the LFO designer much, but will explore/experiment with it. Maybe something will come out of it, but probably not the initial ‘wish’. But that´s perfectly fine too. I´m just trying to learn more about the LFO´s (and/or other stuff) more in depth, bending the rules and/or limits of my mind regarding them.
Just found out this weekend that the OT doesn´t need samples or live input of sound to be able to create sounds. Really rewarding experience![/quote]
I should read everything before answering.
You nailed it in one sentence, @mkdsl ^^
BTW : what was the need behind the fact that you don’t want to use locks, but rather LFOs ? Would you mind developing this aspect ?
I haven´t tried or used the LFO designer much, but will explore/experiment with it. Maybe something will come out of it, but probably not the initial ‘wish’. But that´s perfectly fine too. I´m just trying to learn more about the LFO´s (and/or other stuff) more in depth, bending the rules and/or limits of my mind regarding them.
Just found out this weekend that the OT doesn´t need samples or live input of sound to be able to create sounds. Really rewarding experience![/quote]
I should read everything before answering.
You nailed it in one sentence, @mkdsl ^^
BTW : what was the need behind the fact that you don’t want to use locks, but rather LFOs ? Would you mind developing this aspect ?
[/quote]
Basically it wasn´t a need per se, but more of a idea that came out of the experiment of what happened when just slicing an simple single kick.
As I did slice that and then played the slices in slice mode, listening to the sound of each slice. I ‘realized’ that there might be a potential of creating the impression of lots of variations of kicks where there in fact are no variations (sort of the impression of having an sample/slice chain). And that these variations could be made via different settings of ie the filter base/width as well as envelope (ie to get more snappy sounds etc).
But playing in slice mode doesn´t AFAIK utilize the p-locks, since they are just slices but NOT the actual steps in the grid sequencer which the p-locks are tied to. So my thought with the LFO´s where that since they can be connected to trig events, playing slices would give me the trig events to get the LFO´s moving and thus getting the variations from them. But it would also mean that there are no distinction between playing the same slice several times in a row or playing different slices. The LFO would run in any case. Not necessarily a bad thing as such, but I was thinking if I could somehow workaround that and get a more controlled behaviour. One could see it as a challenge of trying to get the OT to do something it´s not supposed or designed to do.
Well… While in slice mode you can definitely plock a slice of your sample-chain to a step, it’s rather convenient and easier than the LFOs if all you need is some static assignation of a slice.
I see at least two things that are very handy with this :
[ol]
[li]You can for instance use the Slice Play mode to use the trigs buttons to play the slice of your chain and record it live.
E.g. if your slice is rythm oriented, you can tap your beat with the trig buttons, and it will record the slice trigged for each step.[/li]
[li]A nice thing to mess things up is[/li]
[/ol]
[ul]
[li]activate all the steps[/li]
[li]slice your sample-chain[/li]
[li]in the slice edit menu, choose “random trigs”
=> the slice are affected as plocks in random order ![/li]
[/ul]
You can also use the linear assignment to respect the original order.
All this uses p-locks on slices.
Another way to play with slices without the plocks :
use the crossfader to change the slice that is chosen for each step.
It works well with a sample-chain of different kicks, for instance.
Like : you sample one kick with different filter parameters, then use it as a sample chain.
Back to your LFO consideration :
I have absolutely no idea what you mean here.
Mind developping a little bit ?
