When setting up a send, have you discovered a way to keep only the wet signal from the audio input? I can’t figure out how to do that in the A4.
You can’t unfortunately. It’s a needed feature for sure!
Ah, okay, thanks.
I think I’ll try putting the effect level to maximum, and putting the input volume pretty low. Maybe the dry signal won’t be noticeable.
I have had similar issues with getting the output levels coming from my MD and MNM.
I used to daisy chain my Elektrons, but I was having a hell of a time keeping my levels balanced between all the internal synthesis machines shared between the MD and MNM, because the MNM’s output is so much louder than that of the MD.
Since then I got a small Mackie ProFX8 mixer, which has made balancing the two pieces of hardware much much easier. And actually, I always thought that things sounded better running through the mixer (as opposed to daisy chaining the machines), so I’m glad to see other people here saying the same thing about sound qaulity.
Even through the mixer though, I have to turn the main volume of both hardware machines up pretty far, and I have to crank the GAIN way up on the MD mixer channel. It is a bit frustrating at a point, because sometimes certain sounds are so quiet they can barely be made audible, unless I go back through and turn everything else way down (rinse and repeat).
I keep wondering if it’s because the preamps Elektron uses, or if I just need to design better sounds! My JUNO-60 does not have this problam at all. It is loud as hell coming straight from the OUTPUT!
Well… i’d be lying if i said I wasn’t disillusioned to hear that…
I don’t own an Elektron unit yet, though with any luck I’ll have hands on RYTM sooner rather than later… However I was planning on running my bass synth through it… maybe look at an A4 and OT down the track if I found myself really gelling with the workflow… and after all the open ended discussion concerning side chaining on RYTM and the like it’s a bit distressing to hear that the inputs aren’t up to scratch on the A4, let alone the OT!
I wonder why this is though… it’s not like the OT is 12 bit like an MD or something… I hate to use the B-word, but you’re making it sound like they would of been better of just whacking a Behringer Pre behind the inputs…
I was really hoping to get around carrying outboard and mixers live as it’s almost as much hassle as having to deal with a laptop etc and just as much money… but it seems like thats the way it’s gonna go.
This is a subject I’d really appreciate some facts from Elektron on actually… sounds like the signal chain is a little bit of a mystery?
EDIT: Paland, can you not save volume settings per preset in the A4?
Well… i’d be lying if i said I wasn’t disillusioned to hear that…
I don’t own an Elektron unit yet, though with any luck I’ll have hands on RYTM sooner rather than later… However I was planning on running my bass synth through it… maybe look at an A4 and OT down the track if I found myself really gelling with the workflow… and after all the open ended discussion concerning side chaining on RYTM and the like it’s a bit distressing to hear that the inputs aren’t up to scratch on the A4, let alone the OT!
I wonder why this is though… it’s not like the OT is 12 bit like an MD or something… I hate to use the B-word, but you’re making it sound like they would of been better of just whacking a Behringer Pre behind the inputs…
I was really hoping to get around carrying outboard and mixers live as it’s almost as much hassle as having to deal with a laptop etc and just as much money… but it seems like thats the way it’s gonna go.
This is a subject I’d really appreciate some facts from Elektron on actually… sounds like the signal chain is a little bit of a mystery?
EDIT: Paland, can you not save volume settings per preset in the A4?[/quote]
Heya !
Regardless of what I said, the OT and A4 inputs are still a valid choice when needed. They are high quality, and the “flattening” I’m referring to is very subtle, and somewhat subjective (ie. i haven’t actually scientifically measured anything, but I’m relying on my ears)
I’d say it’s better to run through them than through a Behringer. If you’re going to use a mixer, and notice a difference, it should be a reasonably good one. But the OT and A4 inputs are definitely useable 
Thanks for the additional context.
I’m sure you’re not “badmouthing” them or anything like that and I’m sure they’re plenty good enough for live etc when often a live gig will only have bus EQ and compression, let alone individual channels etc… it’s not a “polished” environment and in a studio you often have an abundance of clean pre’s on hand with range to spare… however it’s definently a topic that needs discussion I think…
I’d be interested to hear from Elektron wether there is any digital limiting happening internally as a safety… or wether they have any dynamic range and self noise specs for the input chain that might shed some light on the subject…
Maybe it’s just a really poor slew rate which is resulting in a “flat” sound?
I know you said you haven’t done any dedicated objective testing… but at the end of the day, if you can hear it, it’s definently there and measurable in some form or another…
Maybe an Elektron tech will chime in with what perspective they can without revealing any company secrets…?
I would love to hear from them also. What I can say is that there is some serious gain control going on inside the OT, not sure how, how much, but it looks to me almost like a brickwall limiter somewhere in the chain. I have noticed that mostly in terms of reducing the dynamic range of sounds when getting pushed. It’s easy to observe when recording in a DAW and looking at the resulting waveform. Granted, at that point, i’m going way over the “soft” amp headroom, so limiting is going to occur, on way or the other. Elektron’s gain staging has always been a mystery, I’m not sure why they don’t participate more in the education of their users.
I’m definitely not badmouthing Elektron In fact, if you see my Youtube channel, you will probably realize i’'m one big Elektron fan Which doesn’t mean that they’re perfect and do everything right !
Cheers.
There is some truth in it … i found this phenomena mostly on the OT when i put thru my Blofeld … it´s like reducing dynamics as you said … compaired to a F1-car with a speed-limiter around 80 km/h in the boxstop-section
this is not so prominent on the A4
Is it possible that this ‘flattening’ that’s being discussed is a consequence of the 12db Gain reduction at inputs followed by the 12db gain added, it could be significant at lower bit rates (ie 16) i did a trial on this forum and many people couldn’t tell the difference between source and ‘processed’, it was subtle, likely to have been worse at 16bit
fwiw - this is what 12 db reduction looks like (rhs same content as lhs)
well… if it was a limiter with a threshold… then presumably using super low gains and a bunch of amplification would maybe yield some results.
I’m afraid I don’t own any elektron gear yet so I can’t test it myself… 
a combination of VU and PPM metering on the inputs and the outputs (or something like PAZ Analyzer from Waves perhaps) would yield some results in the dynamic range department.
…If things are being turned up and down internally though, there may be some make up gain circuits or something forcing things against that threshold, in which case what I suggested would reveal nothing….
EDIT: avantronica - I think 1 bit equals around 6.5 dB of dynamic range… so a 12 dB reduction would be the equivalent of reducing 16 bits to 14… or taking away an 8th of available resolution… not an insignificant loss by any means…
But, if it was a Bit Depth issue… (correct me if i’m wrong guys, just throwing ideas around) wouldn’t the detail be lost on the low volume/decaying elements (e.g.: cymbal tails and reverb “dropping out” in an un-natural way at a certain threshold) rather than “punch” and “range” being lost?
This may be something we can test be recording into a DAW and applying Bit Depth reduction and seeing if the results sound similar to what you’re hearing in the gain manipulation of the OT
interesting ideas there … i recall that the best way to discern between various OT test sound files ie original, reduced/gained and so on was in the presentation of the noise floor, so yeah a bit like the notion that it would be more evident in a cymbal tail - i think this would be more a problem if the OT was specifically a studio/fidelity tool, but as an improvisational/performance tool it’s not an obstacle
previous thread on gain ‘recovery’
I have the same experience. I used to run all my stuff thru the OT but then I found everything sounded much flatter. I’m very sure this is not something I imagine. Also, when running a pure sine out of the OT, the top ends get flattened no matter what gain settings you apply so there is defenately happening something there.
i recently bought slim phatty to control it with a4… heard it ONLY trough A4’s input…
almost sold the phatty…
but changed my mind when i heard it at friends studio… serious synth it is
Wet only for the external inputs would be amazing. Does anyone know if that’s even possible with a firmware upgrade? I’m using the A4 external inputs to receive sends from my Mackie 1202 and it works great if you don’t need to adjust the send level.
For the most part I turn up the sends momentarily on another instrument when I want to add temporary delay and/or reverb. Unfortunately since the dry signal is passed through it increases the volume of the instrument as well as applying the effect. The only (two handed thus impractical) solution I have found is to nudge the track volume down while adding the effect.
Alternatively one could set up a performance macro for the effect level on the external inputs but then turning it up would add the effect to every track that has the send up.
Same situation. But I can’t say I’ve noticed the Slim Phatty sounding flat through the A4’s external input (using the ext. in on the FX page)
I did notice a big difference when using the external synth as an oscillator source. The filters took out considerable low end.
The signal path in the A4 is completely analog. So I don’t see how the signal could be affected if you turn up the inputs on the fx page.
The Rytm is similarly rubbish with its inputs, unfortunately. Everything’s so quiet - I tried putting my iPad through there, but even with its output boosted via the iTrack dock, it was still much quieter than the Rytm’s own levels. I had to lower the volume of my Rytm tracks way too much.
However, the AK’s inputs seem much better in this regard. I now run my Rytm into my AK and not the other way around because of this, and the iPad works fine in the mix too. I wonder if the low input levels on other Elektron devices are something that could be boosted with a firmware update, or whether the hardware is hardwired to them.
my live rig includes a slim phatty and xoxbox going through the A4’s external inputs, and the A4 going through the OT, along with a MD.
i’ve had a few issues with the lower external input levels on the A4 too, but i’ve worked around it/worked it out now, and the ability to add (and plock and use macros for) the A4 fx to the external inputs outweigh any dynamics issues that might be happening.
i’d say the same of the OT inputs too. the practical advantages of using the OT as my mixer, fx and arranger in a live situation outweigh any impact on the sound.
sure, the gain staging/structure is annoyingly mysterious sometimes, and the studio tracks that i make using my analogue mixer do sound a bit fuller, but it’s not really a dealbreaker for me.
devil’s advocate: when doing a full DAW-based mixdown of a track, aren’t many sounds going to have their dynamic range reduced with compression anyway?
i would love to hear some examples of OT/A4 inputs vs mixer inputs, both on individual sounds, rhythm tracks and synth sounds. anyone got any/other threads?
For a while, i thought I would never use the OT to mix other gear. Now I actually like it. Particularly good for gluing drum sounds together. Would rather route non-drum synths through a mixer though.
…i had the same inpression in first place…
and sure, does a true analog untamed direct signal with it 's own gainstage on a mixer loose some shine or bite, once you listen to it a/b with a 44.1 /16bit realtime converted version of it…
but most of that impression is the old louder is better trap…
once i managed the gainstaging again, the difference was more or less gone…
next day i pretty much could’nt tell the difference anymore…
at least on pa…i always record the most direct signal possible…for production.
but on a live pa…
chaining the audio outs is fine and a big advantage…